Antique Jade Sword

[cmario88]

Until I find out more about this sword cleaning is out of the question, especially by me. Tim Simmons the dark areas are rather deeply pitted IMO anyway. Atlanta, Thank you, someone went to a lot of trouble to make this and I agree it is beautiful. The materials used such as the jade pieces are authentic, for example the jade on the handle has been describe by 2 experts as coming from ancient Neolithic times possibly the Shang Dynasty (1766-1122 B.C.), the Dragon center piece is white Hetian Jade which to my understanding has become exceeding rare because of its depletion. I was also told because of the turquoise and coral pieces its most probable place of origin or manufacturing would be in Tibet, since it is not commonly used in China. As you can see I am still doing research and hope in time will get a better understanding of what I have. Looking forward to more input and truly appreciate the replies so far. I’m really searching for answers and whether they are bad or good I’m learning much about history, jade, swords, etc. Bottom line I’m having a lot of fun, which is after all why we are all here. If more pictures are needed let me know. Again Thanks

[Bryan.H]

What's with the stain/ discolouration on the blade? This looks chemically treated somehow to me. With so many 'antique' swords being made in Guandong on a daily basis and sold to unsuspecting round-eyes, it's difficult not to be sceptical about edged weapons coming out of China.

[Philip]

Gentlemen,
Nothing about this piece really "adds up". First off, this "Certificate of Authenticity" is issued by a merchant's association in Hong Kong. Not by a legitimate and accredited museum, or the Ministry of Culture but by a ... (ahem!) group of guys who are in the business of selling antiques, tshatshkes, curios, and the like to whomever would buy them. In the Shoppers' Paradise of the Orient, no less. Yuanzhumin has hit it on the head in his post: this document is a pot that won't hold water.

The shape of the blade has no relation to any jian which I have seen from the Han Dynasty onward. The notable reduction in width as it approaches the rather acute tip is a contour that is taken from the classic bronze swords of the Zhou Dynasty's Warring States Period. Yet this blade is made of iron or steel, and has a simple lozenge cross-section (as is the case of jian made during the medieval and late imperial periods), without the complex bevels, sunken panels, and ridgelines in relief that are characteristic of the bronze blades of classical antiquity. The fellow who conceived this blade tried to cover the span of history in one blade and as Genghis Cohen might have said, "me ken nisht zitsn af tsvey shtuln mit eyn tokhes".

The fittings are likewise a stylistic mishmosh. There are these gilt bands with archaistic elements in relief, as seen on Shang and Zhou bronzes. The chape is patterned after those on jian scabbards from the Zhou and Han periods. Next to the gilded elements is silverwork with motifs similar to those seen on Tibetan objects (such as knife-sheaths, tinder-pouches, bowls, pitchers, etc.), with the characteristic turquoises and corals.

I first saw these in Hong Kong in the 1970s, shopkeepers all said at that time that these were "Mongolian knives and swords". One problem -- in all of the period photos I've seen depicting Mongolia and its people, not one of these swords shows up. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art has a single-edged example which is captioned as "Tibetan" in the display cabinet. Again, an exhaustive hunt for documentary ethnographic photos, or provenanced examples in museums, has turned up zilch. And interestingly, nothing remotely similar was included in the definitive exhibition "Warriors of the Himalayas" mounted by the Metropolitan Mus. of Art in 2006 using material from collections in several countries.

These are curio items, composites made of associated materials : antique jades and other hardstones of varying age, blades which were either freshly made (usually quite crudely) or recycled from broken antique Chinese and Japanese swords, and silver parts crafted for the purpose. It's believed that most of these came from Beijing. Silversmiths there were familiar with Tibetan styles of silverwork because a fair amount of the metalwork used by Tibetans was in fact made in China for the export trade.

Some of these sword-like objects are "fairly old" because I've seen a few which have a provenance of sorts -- estate pieces traceable to military or diplomatic service (usually as gifts to US personnel in China before or during WW II). One piece of this sort I remember seeing at a gun show was a jian that had virtually no patina to speak of (having been well-stored in a gun case for years) and fake Qianlong reign marks on the blade that were something of a bad joke. I also saw brand-new ones for sale at the Beijing "Friendship Stores" in 1979 and '81, and similar albeit poorer-quality ones offered for sale in Shanhaiguan in 1998.

[cmario88]

Philip, Thank you on your reply to my "curio" and I say that with a smile. I'm waiting for responses from a few other sources and would like to wait before commenting on your assessment. Again thank you.

[Nathaniel]

Mario,

Philip would be the one of the top authorities on Chinese swords (Google it)...notice the rest of us can tell you it's a fake...but Philip can give you the details....several members on the forum have been collecting for a long time...and have seen what has come around.

The more recent fakes coming out of China are getting better and better at first glance...but still have such a crazy mix motifs send red flags....like Philip said...things just don't add up.

And also to answer your one question regarding the specific forum:

Note the file at the top:

刀剑天下论坛 HFsword.com Forums » 假冒伪劣 Fake Sword Forum

http://hfsword.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=8

[Nathaniel]

Also sadly the Sword Forum International --> Antique Arms & Armour Community -->Chinese, SEA (CSEA)

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=146

This section seems to be prime spot where people ask such questions regarding their recent acquisitions...

[Rick]

Yes, Philip Tom is the real deal .
Trust his remarks about your sword .
They are spot on .

[cmario88]

Hi Nathaniel,

I have no doubt Philip is the authority and as mentioned I am grateful for his response and he has my respect, but that does not mean that I’m going to stop there. I’m also in agreement that it appears the sword has no historical value, but I must cover all avenues in the hopes that by chance it may have another story to tell other then greed, slim I know but crazier things have happened in the world and I think it’s worth a try. Don’t you?
One of the reasons I was waiting to respond back to Philip concerns the infamous “Hong Kong Art Craft Merchants Association” “Certificate Of Antiquity” I’m waiting for response concerning that document. I think it would be fun to see what comes of my request, but truthfully think I’m going to run into a dead end knowing the Chinese reputation on giving out info. Anyway Nathaniel I truly appreciate your help and will post when I have something interesting.

Thanks everyone!!!