17thC relic Rapier saved?

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Hotspur,

Olive oil is the so-called tree oil (German Baumöl) that is mentioned in 17th century armory books as the optimal means of cleaning, together with Schmirgel (sand), and preserving iron surfaces, be it armor or arms. Olive oil is the yellowish patina on untouched surfaces of antique arms; if you clean it off you will get a perfectly preserved milky white iron surface with no rust.

I have been using it in my almost 40 years of conservation practice and will stick to it as it is the historic recipe and has proved to work just fine. During the cleaning process you will get no scratches on the iron surface, nor an unnatural shine afterwards.

Best,
Michael

Beautifully said Michael!!!! I forgot that you had once told me about olive oil being used on these early weapons.

Matchlock · 9th June 2010, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Beautifully said Michael!!!! I forgot that you had once told me about olive oil being used on these early weapons.

Hi Grandmaster Jim,

You must be kidding, my friend.

Are you going to tell me that your master mind actually forgot something? You know I will do anything for you but I won't believe that ...

(after Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf)

Thank you so much,
and with all my very best wishes,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 11th June 2010, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Grandmaster Jim,

You must be kidding, my friend.

Are you going to tell me that your master mind actually forgot something? You know I will do anything for you but I won't believe that ...

(after Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf)

Thank you so much,
and with all my very best wishes,
Michael

Michael, the scope of your awareness is amazing!!! "Bat outa hell"!!!! outstanding stuff

Thank you so much!

Gene, as Michael has noted, thank you for taking the time to personally acknowledge the comments made by all of us, a very nice touch and very much appreciated. You are a true gentleman Sir!!!

All best regards,
Jim

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 01:54 AM

My dear Honored Gentleman Jim,

Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did!

We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?!

Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66,
and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria:
Yours truly,
Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Mikhail, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!)

fernando · 11th June 2010, 01:33 PM

So it's MICHL

.
Why you never told us ?

Nando

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 02:05 PM

Sorry, Fernando, for keeping my Bavarian nickname secret for so long!

Best,
Michl

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 02:14 PM

After discussing Gene's Pappenheimer with my sword collecting friend I must ask whether the blade is one edged. If that is so, and telling by the hilt, it seems that ca. 1645 (late Thirty Years War) would be a more accurate date.

Best,
Michael

katana · 11th June 2010, 02:29 PM

Great thread Gentlemen

.

Nice one Gene.....I love 'relic' pieces.....

Have you decided to what extent, you are going to clean this ? I would certainly consider (if it was mine) making a wooden handle (in 2 halves) and fixing with a wire wrap. No adhesive....so that the handle is not permanently fixed and could be removed without damage to the tang.

All the best
David

Oh by the way, hows your 'other' aquisition doing.....( the two legged, two armed type .... I mean

)

celtan · 11th June 2010, 07:44 PM

Forgot Mikhail..!

Back in the 48s, everytime I went to any of those fast food places where they announce your name through speakers, they kept mangling my name: From lordly and dignified Manuel, to ManuAl, Menhuel, Minguel etc..

So I ended up adopting Michael as a less troublesome alternative.

It got to the point when those who I lunched with ended up calling me Michael (et al) instead of my wonderful name, which BTW, they knew well..!

Could it be that the name Michael is more popular than Manuel..?

Nah ! Silly thought..!

: )

BTW, when _we_ use Olive Oil to preserve muskets, the barrel ends up becoming dark after a while, and it doesn't lighten its shade at all.

There are a couple forumites that are converse withthe methods to dismount and repair hilts, it would be very interesting to do a thread on te subject.

LBNL Did I understand than Nando became a Dad? Or is this figuratively speaking, on account of the new toy?

Best

superM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

My dear Honored Gentleman Jim,

Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did!

We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?!

Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66,
and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria:
Yours truly,
Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!)

Matchlock · 11th June 2010, 08:27 PM

Hi SuperManuel,

(I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name!

You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ...

Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo.

Best,
Mikhail

Philip · 12th June 2010, 07:10 AM

I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

celtan · 12th June 2010, 01:22 PM

Hi Philip,

Never fear, that's not_exactly_ what I had in mind. I agree with everything you said.

OTOH, I have obtained several swords with ruined grip covers and wiring which don't seem to ever have had a preened tang. I suspect the hilt is held together by some type of internal metal hook coupled to expansion of the guard. That's the specific example I should have provided.

I owned a rare Danish Hussard Saber which I had to let go, because I hated the sight of its crumbling leather grip and broken/loose grip wires. I also own a swedish naval saber, lovely in its simplicity and form, but everytime I hold it in my hand, the wire is further damaged. LBNL, I have a huge swedish M1831 saber, which I wanted to use on 18th C Historical reenactments, showing the same problem. I also have a strange english shortsword, found in Westminster's House of Commons after a Luftwaffe attack, which has its fish-skin grip cover crumbling away. All very sad pictures to me, I wish I could fix them.

The following pics have nothing to do with my swords, just the type of grips I was writing about.

Cheers

merelyM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it.

The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

fernando · 12th June 2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

... Did I understand than Nando became a Dad? Or is this figuratively speaking, on account of the new toy? ...

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago

celtan · 12th June 2010, 12:50 PM

Well. Belated congrats nonetheless..!

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

i meant the real thing, but that was 32 years ago

fernando · 12th June 2010, 01:17 PM

This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels?
If not, i confess i am a sinner

. I had this cup hilted sword with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso.
The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina

Fernando

Atlantia · 9th June 2010, 10:29 PM

Hi All!

Nando,
Well, I've not actually used olive oil before (apart from cooking of course)
I'll have to buy some tomorrow

Jim,
Thanks for the research, it kinda confirms my thoughts. Well, I thought 1620-30, but a few years later is still fine really.

Manolo,
Thanks

To be honest I think the pommel is my favourite bit! Its such a beauty!

Michael,
Thank you for your research. To be honest (and without looking through my books which I don't have access to at the moment) I didn't think it was 'quite' a pappenheimer, so thats a most pleasant suprise!
The 'Bonhams' sword is an absolute beauty! Would that I could happen across one of that quality

I will try olive oil/silicon carbide paper, I can honestly say I'd never have thought of using olive oil to lubricate the paper.
I will certainly show off the results.

Philip,
Some great tips there! Especially the deer antler. I completely approve, they drop off naturally, and are great to work with. I'll have to fabricate a few 'tools' from some offcuts, as I'm actually working a piece to make a hilt at the moment.
I didn't know it was a traditional tool for Japanese Tsuba/metalworkers

Hotspur,
Well, I've not used it before either, but sounds like its worth a try.

Martin,
I'e always used aerosol penetrating oils as they hopefully WILL sink into the pits and stabilise the rust. I've never had a problem with them loosening deep rust like an acid though.

Nando,
That this fine weapon should have ended up like this is just horrible.
I don't think any beauty parlour could do much... but I do have some hopes.
Its a bit like watching England in the world cup, there will probobly be some sweat and tears, fingers crossed, prayers whispered... but in the end, mostly just a sad realisation of what 'might have been'

Matchlock · 10th June 2010, 03:10 AM

Hi Gene,

Thanks so much for appreciating our fellow contributions!
It really does one so good being both confirmed and enabled to inform you on the treasure you landed!

Of course it's all up to you to make the best out of that rare acquisition.

Having been a regular subscriber to all the relevant auction houses for more than 30 years worldwide, I continuously see thousands of pieces going thru the international market each year. Given the fact that the result price of the piece in discussion I posted didn't bash you off too hard, please let me know whenever you're ready to hit. I would then love giving you a hint on future chances.
I will sent you a private message.

May I give you a fair warning about using silicone though:
It will be final, with no chance whatsoever to get it off - that's what in my mind most people tend to neglect ...

The choice is all up to you anyways, so good luck - and I really look forward to seeing the pics.

Best,
Michael

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 05:08 PM

Did you finish your conservation?
Perhaps we can see the results?

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 06:20 PM

Also, I've searched 'tannin' and couldn't find any pharmacy products. Would anyone care to elaborate on it?

fernando · 10th August 2010, 06:37 PM

Search for "Tannic acid".
Contained in red whine, coffe, tea, spinach, etc
The formula is C76H52O46.
The other day, a museum restorer also adviced this stuff.
It is found, over here, in traditional drug stores.
Certainly acquirable in the Internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannic_acid

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 06:43 PM

Thank you. I know what a tannic acid is. I was hoping it was available as a commercial product.The easiest way for me to obtain it is probably to brew some strong tea. Perhaps that's what I should do, and try it on an iron nail.

Dmitry · 10th August 2010, 06:49 PM

Found this -
http://www.homebrewit.com/aisle/p/6300B

11th June 2010, 01:54 AM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	My dear Honored Gentleman Jim, Again nobody could have possibly summarized it nearly as well as you did! We've always felt like strong brother bats ready to get outa hell, and danm' it didn't we?! Thankin' you so much for makin' me blush one more time, my big boss and dear friend out there on Route 66, and with all my heartfelt greetings from far off Lower Bavaria: Yours truly, Michael, Mike, Mikey, Mickey, Mikhail, Miguel, Michel, Michl (Bavarian!) Last edited by Matchlock; 11th June 2010 at 08:10 PM.

11th June 2010, 02:14 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Slight correction of dating After discussing Gene's Pappenheimer with my sword collecting friend I must ask whether the blade is one edged. If that is so, and telling by the hilt, it seems that ca. 1645 (late Thirty Years War) would be a more accurate date. Best, Michael

12th June 2010, 07:10 AM	#11
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Oy, cholileh! I heard some very disturbing words here, such as "remove the pommel". PLEASE DON'T! Conceivably, there will be a situation sometime in which a pommel has to be taken off, I've had to do it in my restoration practice, but I can see that this is not the time for it since a gentleman has previously given a wonderful suggestion -- if you want to put a handle on this hilt to make the piece "complete", then simply install two shaped pieces of wood with the leather and wire overlay in period style. The wooden halves can be held together with houselhold glue or some simple adhesive to make the thing easy to handle during subsequent leather- and wire-work, but should not be glued directly to the tang in case a subsequent owner wants to remove it. The peening of the tang into the "mushroom" over the pommel, and the subsequent rusting and patination of the surface, is a testament to the time that has passed since the sword was last fitted-up. This historical record will be destroyed if the tang is filed or ground to allow the pommel to slide off. There is also the issue of having enough metal protruding from the pommel when the hilt is eventually re-assembled, let's just not go there for now. It is possible to patinate a newly re-peened tang but the results, though better than bare metal, are never as satisfying as that which has seen the passage of centuries. For this reason, I am also loathe to clean sword tangs down to bare metal (the Japanese are truly anal-retentive about this and de-rusting a tang down to bare iron will destroy the value of a blade in their eyes). Remove active corrosion but leave the patina intact. Blades get cleaned, polished, sharpened, refinished during their working lives, but the tang tends to remain undisturbed in the hilt and the signs of age that are evident in this area should remain if at all possible.

12th June 2010, 01:17 PM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	pommel removal This not being the case but, is there no tolerance for screw pommels? If not, i confess i am a sinner . I had this cup hilted sword with both easily unscrewable knuckle guard fixation and pommel. I culdn't resist the temptation to dismount them, to better discern the maker's marks on the ricasso. The result was positive on the mark visualization, and no visible harm occurred with the hilt patina Fernando Last edited by fernando; 12th June 2010 at 01:54 PM. Reason: correction

10th June 2010, 03:10 AM	#17
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Gene, Thanks so much for appreciating our fellow contributions! It really does one so good being both confirmed and enabled to inform you on the treasure you landed! Of course it's all up to you to make the best out of that rare acquisition. Having been a regular subscriber to all the relevant auction houses for more than 30 years worldwide, I continuously see thousands of pieces going thru the international market each year. Given the fact that the result price of the piece in discussion I posted didn't bash you off too hard, please let me know whenever you're ready to hit. I would then love giving you a hint on future chances. I will sent you a private message. May I give you a fair warning about using silicone though: It will be final, with no chance whatsoever to get it off - that's what in my mind most people tend to neglect ... The choice is all up to you anyways, so good luck - and I really look forward to seeing the pics. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 10th June 2010 at 03:22 AM.

11th June 2010, 01:33 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So it's MICHL . Why you never told us ? Nando

11th June 2010, 02:05 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sorry, Fernando, for keeping my Bavarian nickname secret for so long! Best, Michl

11th June 2010, 02:29 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Great thread Gentlemen . Nice one Gene.....I love 'relic' pieces..... Have you decided to what extent, you are going to clean this ? I would certainly consider (if it was mine) making a wooden handle (in 2 halves) and fixing with a wire wrap. No adhesive....so that the handle is not permanently fixed and could be removed without damage to the tang. All the best David Oh by the way, hows your 'other' aquisition doing.....( the two legged, two armed type .... I mean )

11th June 2010, 08:27 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi SuperManuel, (I certainly won't go corrupting your both lordly and heavenly name! You are perfectly right - how could I forget Mikhail? So I edited that post right away and added that version. Hope for your greatful forgiveness for this one time ... Yeah, a thread on dismantling rapiers sounds like a great idea but I am afraid I am not the chosen one to do that. I never dismantle pommels or wire bindings. When they have obviously been together for hundreds of years that would seem a sacrilege to me. Leave untouched objects just the way they have been handed down to us, that's always been my credo. Best, Mikhail

9th June 2010, 10:29 PM	#16
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi All! Nando, Well, I've not actually used olive oil before (apart from cooking of course) I'll have to buy some tomorrow Jim, Thanks for the research, it kinda confirms my thoughts. Well, I thought 1620-30, but a few years later is still fine really. Manolo, Thanks To be honest I think the pommel is my favourite bit! Its such a beauty! Michael, Thank you for your research. To be honest (and without looking through my books which I don't have access to at the moment) I didn't think it was 'quite' a pappenheimer, so thats a most pleasant suprise! The 'Bonhams' sword is an absolute beauty! Would that I could happen across one of that quality I will try olive oil/silicon carbide paper, I can honestly say I'd never have thought of using olive oil to lubricate the paper. I will certainly show off the results. Philip, Some great tips there! Especially the deer antler. I completely approve, they drop off naturally, and are great to work with. I'll have to fabricate a few 'tools' from some offcuts, as I'm actually working a piece to make a hilt at the moment. I didn't know it was a traditional tool for Japanese Tsuba/metalworkers Hotspur, Well, I've not used it before either, but sounds like its worth a try. Martin, I'e always used aerosol penetrating oils as they hopefully WILL sink into the pits and stabilise the rust. I've never had a problem with them loosening deep rust like an acid though. Nando, That this fine weapon should have ended up like this is just horrible. I don't think any beauty parlour could do much... but I do have some hopes. Its a bit like watching England in the world cup, there will probobly be some sweat and tears, fingers crossed, prayers whispered... but in the end, mostly just a sad realisation of what 'might have been'

10th August 2010, 05:08 PM	#18
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Did you finish your conservation? Perhaps we can see the results?

10th August 2010, 06:20 PM	#19
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Also, I've searched 'tannin' and couldn't find any pharmacy products. Would anyone care to elaborate on it?

10th August 2010, 06:37 PM	#20
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Search for "Tannic acid". Contained in red whine, coffe, tea, spinach, etc The formula is C76H52O46. The other day, a museum restorer also adviced this stuff. It is found, over here, in traditional drug stores. Certainly acquirable in the Internet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannic_acid

10th August 2010, 06:43 PM	#21
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Thank you. I know what a tannic acid is. I was hoping it was available as a commercial product.The easiest way for me to obtain it is probably to brew some strong tea. Perhaps that's what I should do, and try it on an iron nail.

10th August 2010, 06:49 PM	#22
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Found this - http://www.homebrewit.com/aisle/p/6300B