good day

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2010, 04:54 PM

Yuanzhumin, I wanted to thank you for acknowledging my suggestion on the African python, and your support of the observation...indeed very much appreciated.
This really is an intriguing dilemma in discussing this item, and I have been going through notes and resources at hand trying to locate that stylized geometric on the blade.
I am posting a page from an important article on the kaskara, "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan", by Graham Reed (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March, 1987) and in plate LV (a) you will see a remarkably similar pattern, and in (d) you will see a snake, which presumably would be a python.

In the article, the author notes that in these regions the python is termed 'assala', and this would likely be the species 'python sebae' which is found widely across sub-Saharan Africa.

It would seem the linear diamond pattern may suggest the pattern in the skin of the snake. While this motif is clearly far from West Africa in this case, it is important to remember the trade routes that profusely crisscrossed African regions, and which diffused all manner of material culture and thought.
The snake, particularly the python, was prominant in animist folk religion and superstition in Africa, and in Dahomey (now Benin) in West Africa the serpent in thier mythology was known as 'Dan'. In its supernatural perspective, this serpent (typically considered a python) supported all on its many coils.

Having considered the nature of these markings, and returning to the apparant features of this knife, I have become compelled to agree with the distinctly European feel for its elements. While it is agreed that African artisans were extremely skilled in producing impressive metalwork, it does not seem that they followed inherent European features in the detail seen here.
For example, the beaded section in the upper guard center, and the inscribed bands in the ferrule. I should point out that these parallel crossguards it seems are found on a number of hirschfangers often of 18th century, most often German and French. The redundant guard feature is also something that occurs in Spanish colonial weapons of the early 19th century.

The oval stud in the wood grip, again very much corresponding to European hunting weapons. The capstan, distinctly European.

With that, it is important to note that while African artisans were certainly adept at producing outstanding work, the 19th century had many regions in Africa increasingly colonized, and certainly there were European armourers and smiths present in some degree. The ultra stlylized zoomorphic head in the pommel of this item as I mentioned earlier, somewhat recalls that seen on the flyssa. The amalgam of components seen here reflect cross cultural influences which were likely the result of trade, colonization and probably diplomatic matters.

Perhaps this was indeed in a European style trousse fashioned as a gift or presentation to a West African chief or dignitary, and inscribed with this motif to recognize thier symbolism. In further note, the inscribed motif at the forte seems very much European in application.

Rick · 8th June 2010, 06:31 PM

My one observation is that the workmanship seems a bit crude for European manufacture .

Look at the engraved rings on the ferrule; a European smith (in the era we're speaking of) would probably have not let that ferrule out the shop door .

The Apprentice who did the work might have been dismissed also .

So I'd guess there is not much of European manufacture here; maybe the button, tack and lower crossguard .

Africa gets my vote for now ..

Best,
Rick

Tim Simmons · 8th June 2010, 07:21 PM

I have to ask what is so technically beyond African metal work. Benin would have continuous European contact but above all highly skilled court artists. Look at the work in these links-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12015
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=trumbash

These would be like the back woods compared to Benin.

I could bring up many examples from the archive of the most excellent African work.

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2010, 07:58 PM

While the focus on whether the work is European or African continues, and as my observations concerning that perspective are irrelevant, I have posted again here the markings which I think are interesting. I was having some technical difficulty in attaching in previous post, so wanted to be sure it was seen by those interested in markings.

Jim McDougall · 9th June 2010, 07:13 PM

518 hits so far, nice!!!!

Rick · 9th June 2010, 09:31 PM

Got tired of going up and down the page ..

Figure A .

yuanzhumin · 10th June 2010, 11:54 PM

Because I mentioned the Paiwan snake pattern in this thread before, I thought that it could be useful to have an idea of what I meant. Here is a graphic that could be of interest, showing how the patterns can be highly stylicised among the Paiwan, as it could be among other tribal groups. Diamond patterns, triangle patterns… all of them symbolizing the snake.

8th June 2010, 04:54 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Yuanzhumin, I wanted to thank you for acknowledging my suggestion on the African python, and your support of the observation...indeed very much appreciated. This really is an intriguing dilemma in discussing this item, and I have been going through notes and resources at hand trying to locate that stylized geometric on the blade. I am posting a page from an important article on the kaskara, "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan", by Graham Reed (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March, 1987) and in plate LV (a) you will see a remarkably similar pattern, and in (d) you will see a snake, which presumably would be a python. In the article, the author notes that in these regions the python is termed 'assala', and this would likely be the species 'python sebae' which is found widely across sub-Saharan Africa. It would seem the linear diamond pattern may suggest the pattern in the skin of the snake. While this motif is clearly far from West Africa in this case, it is important to remember the trade routes that profusely crisscrossed African regions, and which diffused all manner of material culture and thought. The snake, particularly the python, was prominant in animist folk religion and superstition in Africa, and in Dahomey (now Benin) in West Africa the serpent in thier mythology was known as 'Dan'. In its supernatural perspective, this serpent (typically considered a python) supported all on its many coils. Having considered the nature of these markings, and returning to the apparant features of this knife, I have become compelled to agree with the distinctly European feel for its elements. While it is agreed that African artisans were extremely skilled in producing impressive metalwork, it does not seem that they followed inherent European features in the detail seen here. For example, the beaded section in the upper guard center, and the inscribed bands in the ferrule. I should point out that these parallel crossguards it seems are found on a number of hirschfangers often of 18th century, most often German and French. The redundant guard feature is also something that occurs in Spanish colonial weapons of the early 19th century. The oval stud in the wood grip, again very much corresponding to European hunting weapons. The capstan, distinctly European. With that, it is important to note that while African artisans were certainly adept at producing outstanding work, the 19th century had many regions in Africa increasingly colonized, and certainly there were European armourers and smiths present in some degree. The ultra stlylized zoomorphic head in the pommel of this item as I mentioned earlier, somewhat recalls that seen on the flyssa. The amalgam of components seen here reflect cross cultural influences which were likely the result of trade, colonization and probably diplomatic matters. Perhaps this was indeed in a European style trousse fashioned as a gift or presentation to a West African chief or dignitary, and inscribed with this motif to recognize thier symbolism. In further note, the inscribed motif at the forte seems very much European in application. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th June 2010 at 07:54 PM.

8th June 2010, 06:31 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	My one observation is that the workmanship seems a bit crude for European manufacture . Look at the engraved rings on the ferrule; a European smith (in the era we're speaking of) would probably have not let that ferrule out the shop door . The Apprentice who did the work might have been dismissed also . So I'd guess there is not much of European manufacture here; maybe the button, tack and lower crossguard . Africa gets my vote for now .. Best, Rick Last edited by Rick; 8th June 2010 at 06:44 PM.

8th June 2010, 07:58 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	While the focus on whether the work is European or African continues, and as my observations concerning that perspective are irrelevant, I have posted again here the markings which I think are interesting. I was having some technical difficulty in attaching in previous post, so wanted to be sure it was seen by those interested in markings. Attached Images

9th June 2010, 09:31 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Got tired of going up and down the page .. Figure A . Attached Images

10th June 2010, 11:54 PM	#7
yuanzhumin Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Ex-Taipei, Taiwan, now in Shanghai, China Posts: 180	Because I mentioned the Paiwan snake pattern in this thread before, I thought that it could be useful to have an idea of what I meant. Here is a graphic that could be of interest, showing how the patterns can be highly stylicised among the Paiwan, as it could be among other tribal groups. Diamond patterns, triangle patterns… all of them symbolizing the snake. Attached Images

8th June 2010, 07:21 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I have to ask what is so technically beyond African metal work. Benin would have continuous European contact but above all highly skilled court artists. Look at the work in these links- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12015 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=trumbash These would be like the back woods compared to Benin. I could bring up many examples from the archive of the most excellent African work.

9th June 2010, 07:13 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	518 hits so far, nice!!!!