New edition Gardner's book

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 11:10 PM

I strongly endorse your remarks, David.

Comments which denigrate personal spiritual belief have no part in discussion relating to keris, which is itself an icon with a high spiritual content.

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 11:28 PM

Thanks for your response on the "error" issue, Jean.

I note that all the inadequacies that you have identified are related to the graphic identification of keris components. Some of these I also noted, the Madura hilt is a stand-out, however, I personally do not place a great deal of importance on what could be considered to be relatively minor errors in identification or classification. There is other graphic error also, but its only names, and does not affect understanding.

My principal interest is in the information contained in the text, and there are inadequacies in this too. I'm not going to enumerate what I consider to be incorrect, because I am hoping that David Henckel will provide info on what he sees as incorrect, his criticism of Gardner is very much stronger than mine would be, so he obviously has seen some quite severe flaws that have the potential to affect basic understanding. Read in the context of the time, I cannot see these flaws, but my knowledge is limited to one area, David Henckel's knowledge covers a different area, so I feel it is important for him to identify for us these serious flaws in Gardner's work.

DAHenkel · 1st June 2010, 12:56 AM

Honestly, I'm not all that against the book - I simply pointed out that it is (liberally) salted with inaccuracies and mistakes and should be used with caution. Given the choice between seeing this source reprinted and a new - more accurate book I'd much rather have the latter. Gardner and his generation of colonial era gentleman scholars have played a key role in snatching the last dying embers of keris knowledge from the abyss and deserve a lot of credit for that. I just wanted to point out that they are far from perfect and cannot be taken as cannonical works uncritically.

David · 1st June 2010, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

I just wanted to point out that they are far from perfect and cannot be taken as cannonical works uncritically.

Thanks Dave, but you are still not being all that specific. And could you possibly name a keris book which is perfect and can be taken as a cannonical work uncritically. I can't think of any.

A. G. Maisey · 1st June 2010, 02:41 AM

Thank you David (Henkel) for clarifying your remarks.

PenangsangII · 2nd June 2010, 05:13 AM

I agree with Dave, Gardner's book is full with inaccuracies, and I thought the publisher would like to reprint the book with some correction/s found after 70 years.

Speaking of inaccuracies and mistakes, I opine that the least mistakes in keris book is still "Keris Jawa: Antara Mistik dan Nalar" though ofcourse there's room for improvement

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2010, 05:54 AM

Inspiring for me, as a javanese, is Garret & Bronwen Solyom, "The World of the Javanese Keris"... The way he prepared to write the book (for the time being, became a "mranggi" in Jogja, and also spent a lot of time with Empu Djeno in his besalen in Jitar, Jogja) is one reason to admire. The other reason, is his "barat" view (viewing keris, objectively with his western eye) is another thing... My one cent opinion, of course... David van Duuren's books, always interesting to me too

Indonesian books? Yes, still "minus malum" if you may say it -- Haryono Guritno's book "Keris Jawa" and not a perfect one, Bambang Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi...

GANJAWULUNG

27th May 2010, 11:10 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I strongly endorse your remarks, David. Comments which denigrate personal spiritual belief have no part in discussion relating to keris, which is itself an icon with a high spiritual content.

27th May 2010, 11:28 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks for your response on the "error" issue, Jean. I note that all the inadequacies that you have identified are related to the graphic identification of keris components. Some of these I also noted, the Madura hilt is a stand-out, however, I personally do not place a great deal of importance on what could be considered to be relatively minor errors in identification or classification. There is other graphic error also, but its only names, and does not affect understanding. My principal interest is in the information contained in the text, and there are inadequacies in this too. I'm not going to enumerate what I consider to be incorrect, because I am hoping that David Henckel will provide info on what he sees as incorrect, his criticism of Gardner is very much stronger than mine would be, so he obviously has seen some quite severe flaws that have the potential to affect basic understanding. Read in the context of the time, I cannot see these flaws, but my knowledge is limited to one area, David Henckel's knowledge covers a different area, so I feel it is important for him to identify for us these serious flaws in Gardner's work.

1st June 2010, 12:56 AM	#3
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Honestly, I'm not all that against the book - I simply pointed out that it is (liberally) salted with inaccuracies and mistakes and should be used with caution. Given the choice between seeing this source reprinted and a new - more accurate book I'd much rather have the latter. Gardner and his generation of colonial era gentleman scholars have played a key role in snatching the last dying embers of keris knowledge from the abyss and deserve a lot of credit for that. I just wanted to point out that they are far from perfect and cannot be taken as cannonical works uncritically.

1st June 2010, 02:41 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thank you David (Henkel) for clarifying your remarks.

2nd June 2010, 05:13 AM	#6
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I agree with Dave, Gardner's book is full with inaccuracies, and I thought the publisher would like to reprint the book with some correction/s found after 70 years. Speaking of inaccuracies and mistakes, I opine that the least mistakes in keris book is still "Keris Jawa: Antara Mistik dan Nalar" though ofcourse there's room for improvement

2nd June 2010, 05:54 AM	#7
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Inspiring for me, as a javanese, is Garret & Bronwen Solyom, "The World of the Javanese Keris"... The way he prepared to write the book (for the time being, became a "mranggi" in Jogja, and also spent a lot of time with Empu Djeno in his besalen in Jitar, Jogja) is one reason to admire. The other reason, is his "barat" view (viewing keris, objectively with his western eye) is another thing... My one cent opinion, of course... David van Duuren's books, always interesting to me too Indonesian books? Yes, still "minus malum" if you may say it -- Haryono Guritno's book "Keris Jawa" and not a perfect one, Bambang Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi... GANJAWULUNG