Some more objects from the RDG - kaskara (?) and spears

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2010, 08:33 PM

Nicely done David! Thank you for the note on Mole and galvanizing, and it would be interesting to learn more on the use of this process in England in these times.

I have been rather determined to discover more on these kaskaras, and how they might have been captured at Tel el Kebir in 1882, as this conflict was between nationalist Egyptian forces rebelling against the Khedive, and the British forces protecting thier interests in Egypt and the Suez Canal.

The key problem, as previously noted, being that the Egyptian Army was essentially a modernized army, now equipped with Remington carbines and revolvers, and wearing military uniforms. That having been said, I think it is important to note that the rebel forces were not technically the forces of the Khedive, in the militarily outfitted sense, though it would be likely that a large part of them had this equipment.

It is known that the Khedives forces, by 1876, had been receiving these modern firearms ("Khedive Ismail's Army" , John P.Dunn, 2005, p.38). It is also worthy of note that these forces also included the regiments known as the Khedives 'Iron Men'. Certainly the Turko-Circassian aristocracy as well as the well established Mamluk traditions had firmly emplaced the use of medieval style armour, and these elite regiments were carrying forth those traditions.

The reason I bring this up is that in these times, apparantly the British industrial engine in Birmingham was supplying helmets of traditional style to these Khedival troops, as well as producing chain mail for them. While it is unclear about swords and blades that might have been produced along with these, it does seem quite possible that medieval type broadsword blades, well known in the kaskaras, could well have been produced in some number
as well.
The comments and observations on galvanizing were what triggered this thought, as well as the fact that these blades seem somewhat more 'industrial' and without the typical characteristics of many of these swords of the Mahdist trophy groups.

In trying to establish who then, in the Egyptian forces, might have been using kaskaras, we must consider that within the Khedives forces were also irregular troops of Bedouin in sizeable contingents, along with small squadrons of Shayqiyya. These units who functioned much as the Bedouin, in duties such as raiders, scouts, border guards etc. and thier home areas were actually in generally the same regions as that which encompassed the campaign at Tel el Kebir in 1882. Incorporated in these groups were elements of the Beni Amer tribe, actually a component of the large Beja group more familiar in Sudanese areas, but certainly present in these parts of Egypt and Northern Sudan.

Here is what is important, I have seen illustrations of the Beni Amer, mounted, wearing chain mail, and kaskaras! It would seem entirely possible, if not likely, that many of these tribesmen would have joined Ahmed Urabi in revolt, along with the profound ties to the Shayqiyya Brotherhood, and Bedouin.

Here may be where these clearly Sudanese broadswords may have found thier way into the hands of the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards, just as has been included in RDG's description. It is also worthy of note that , "...the British admiration for an enemy intensified thier desire to collect war trophies".
(Maj. Gen. Sir Alexander Bruce Tulloch).

Also, noted by war correspondent G.W. Stevens after Omdurman in 1898, the respect the British had for these adversaries remained as he noted, "..our men were perfect, but the Dervishes were superb beyond perfection".

The instructions not to wantonly destroy the combatants at Tel el Kebir was certainly to try to defray as much damage as possible in this unfortunate situation, and certainly reflected much of this same perspective. It seems likely of course that many of these forces may have become part of the Khedives forces in the later campaigns.

While often times museum attributions and provenances can certainly become clouded over many years, but in this I very much commend RDG for his efforts to find support for that with these kaskaras. It is an example that should be followed by the staff and constituents of all museums, and I hope the discussion here will prove helpful in the further display of these historic swords.

All best regards,
Jim

RDGAC · 20th May 2010, 12:15 PM

Thank you both for the insights; I shall have to look in to our records (such as they are) to see where we got our caption information. Unfortunately, the records of the 4th DG are sparse (as indeed are all of our records); a fire at their barracks circa 1920 destroyed a great many records going back to the regiment's foundation in 1685, and over the years yet more records have been lost owing to neglect, mishandling, wartime damage (the 5th Dragoon Guards placed their records into safe storage for the Second World War, only for said safe storage facility to be bombed flat by the Luftwaffe - argh!) the sheer ignorance of the squaddies on the importance of such documents (with no offence at all meant; it's not their job to be archivists, it's their job to be good soldiers, and so long as they do that I can forgive them most anything, however frustrating it might be for us down the line), and the habit of QMs to regard these enormous boxes of paper as so much useless encumbrance. I'm told by my boss (an ex-soldier himself) that on many occasions quartermasters would simply detail some luckless corporal and a private (or trooper, in our case) to go through the records and destroy any that weren't absolutely vital - or indeed, just to burn the lot as long as they weren't in use. It makes one bang one's head on the wall nowadays, but one can't really blame them.

Regardless, however, we must try. I happen to feel it's my duty to do so, and it's good to see that people appreciate that. Makes one feel quite humbled, really. Aw, shucks!

In any event, on with the show. Our final kaskara is much like our second specimen; it's in good condition (for ours, anyway), with its blade largely free from active rust and cleaned up; with that removed a good coating of oil (I cannot recommend Young's "303" enough, since it comes in a spray can and provides a good, durable coating - but am I right?) and some treatment applied, however belatedly, to its leather bindings and pommel should see it through, though I still dislike the unsightly black blotches of inactive corrosion. Once again it has a single, broad fuller, and is fairly sharp though less flexible than any other of the blades, at least to my feeling.

The blade also has a design etched into its base, just forward of the top of the langet, on both sides; after numerous unsuccessful attempts to make a rubbing of the wretched thing I decided to draw it instead, so I'm afraid that'll have to do until I can make a proper rubbing of the design, which seems to be carved fairly shallowly into the metal. Though the leather bindings are intact (just), they have begun to come away from the wood and, having I suspect been untreated for some years, are very frail. I've begun applying leather cream to all the leather parts on our swords (and everything else, too, in time) with the aim of trying to restore some of their natural strength and prevent them from disintegrating entirely.

Length overall: 39.375in (100cm)
Length blade: 34.5in (87.5cm)
Length grip: 4.5in (11.5cm)
Length fullers: 8.5in (21.5cm)
Width: 2in (5cm) at base of blade, tapering to 1.5in (3.8cm) just prior to tip.
Tip: Spatulate (?)/"spear-point".
Width of cross-guard: 6.895in (16.8cm)

Overall views:
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6070/img0429b.jpg
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7523/img0430j.jpg
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5227/img0431r.jpg

Bottom of sword, grip, pommel and cross-guard, prior to treatment:
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9813/img0441qp.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8207/img0428pa.jpg

Detail of design on blade base (probably not much good - sorry about that):
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9839/img0432am.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9115/img0434yf.jpg
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3359/img0436hq.jpg

Langets, cross-guard and bottom of edge:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5250/img0438mx.jpg

Pommel (and my shirt - admire its stripiness):
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3375/img0439ru.jpg

Fuller, base of blade and cross guard:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2504/img0440n.jpg

Reproduction of design on blade - approximately:
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/403/img0465q.jpg

Jim McDougall · 20th May 2010, 10:07 PM

Yes RDG, appreciation is often a scarcely afforded commodity in our times, but nonetheless, we do what we do

I think that what always keeps me charged up is the tremendous satisfaction of discovering things and always hoping others will add to the trove. That doesnt happen as much as I would like to see, but there are some out there with the same passion.

Regarding the plight of the records, it seems that is a well known dilemma and so much has been destroyed by war and disaster. One thing I think of as an alternate resource in your case might be the National Army Museum in London. Some years ago, and in quite a number of cases, these folks were wonderfully helpful, and I was truly amazed at the volume of material they have compiled. While official records from one source may have been lost, the donations from private individuals seem to have often ended up here rather than the specialized museums.

Once cleaned and stabilized, and along with some photos and display graphics, I think these will offer a great representation of this event in the units history.

It is pretty hard to make out much from these images, and I am not computer savvy enough to use all the cropping, brightening features, but this too looks like the very much standard kaskara of the period. The drawing you added seems to stall each time I try to display it, and it would be great to determine more on the blade if I could see it.

katana · 20th May 2010, 10:35 PM

Hi Jim and RDG

,
thank you both for your comments. RDG the marking on the 'latest' Kaskara is mentioned in this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...danese+marking

Kind Regards David

RDGAC · 20th May 2010, 10:44 PM

David, absolutely bang on! The one thing that's different is that I'm quite positive (from home) that the diagonal lines run in the perpendicular fashion on our example. If it is a Mahdist symbol, then that dates it very precisely, but... it doesn't mean it's connected to the rest of these blades! For some while - certainly since I have been here, i.e. since November - this blade has lain in our Uniform Store (which is in chaos), in what I can only describe, with the greatest regret, as a disorganised heap of swords, for we have neither a sword rack nor anywhere to put one. This heap, fortunately, contains mostly relatively common British weapons, and doesn't seem to be doing them any harm, since most are in their scabbards.

It could thus be that our other examples were taken by the 4th D.G., or indeed the 7th D.G., in the course of the 1882 campaign, while this particular weapon was captured in 1884. Dangit!

David · 21st May 2010, 12:23 AM

RDG, in the future could you actually post your images directly to this forum. They are easy to access now, but next month or next year or so you are bound to take these off imageshack and then this will be a long and interesting discussion that has no illustrations of the weapon in question . If you need help we can tell you how to upload directly.

RDGAC · 21st May 2010, 01:07 AM

I did try uploading to the forum, but unfortunately found that the forum's file server size limits are rather smaller than the images I'm uploading! Is there any way around that? I know ImageShack and the like are distinctly ephemeral storage means, but without uploading them here being possible I'm not sure where else to go.

Edit: Of course, I could do the intelligent thing, and crop the images so as to eliminate the honking great background area that's irrelevant to the weapon. I'll try that tomorrow and see what I get, as well as working on getting some better pics of that design.

stephen wood · 20th May 2010, 10:40 PM

Thank you so much for posting these - we now know that this mark, noted by Cabot-Briggs over forty years ago on a takouba not a kaskara, was being used as early as the 1880's.

20th May 2010, 10:40 PM	#8
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Thank you so much for posting these - we now know that this mark, noted by Cabot-Briggs over forty years ago on a *takouba not* a kaskara*, was being used as early as the 1880's. Attached Images Last edited by stephen wood; 20th May 2010 at 11:44 PM.*

19th May 2010, 08:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Nicely done David! Thank you for the note on Mole and galvanizing, and it would be interesting to learn more on the use of this process in England in these times. I have been rather determined to discover more on these kaskaras, and how they might have been captured at Tel el Kebir in 1882, as this conflict was between nationalist Egyptian forces rebelling against the Khedive, and the British forces protecting thier interests in Egypt and the Suez Canal. The key problem, as previously noted, being that the Egyptian Army was essentially a modernized army, now equipped with Remington carbines and revolvers, and wearing military uniforms. That having been said, I think it is important to note that the rebel forces were not technically the forces of the Khedive, in the militarily outfitted sense, though it would be likely that a large part of them had this equipment. It is known that the Khedives forces, by 1876, had been receiving these modern firearms ("Khedive Ismail's Army" , John P.Dunn, 2005, p.38). It is also worthy of note that these forces also included the regiments known as the Khedives 'Iron Men'. Certainly the Turko-Circassian aristocracy as well as the well established Mamluk traditions had firmly emplaced the use of medieval style armour, and these elite regiments were carrying forth those traditions. The reason I bring this up is that in these times, apparantly the British industrial engine in Birmingham was supplying helmets of traditional style to these Khedival troops, as well as producing chain mail for them. While it is unclear about swords and blades that might have been produced along with these, it does seem quite possible that medieval type broadsword blades, well known in the kaskaras, could well have been produced in some number as well. The comments and observations on galvanizing were what triggered this thought, as well as the fact that these blades seem somewhat more 'industrial' and without the typical characteristics of many of these swords of the Mahdist trophy groups. In trying to establish who then, in the Egyptian forces, might have been using kaskaras, we must consider that within the Khedives forces were also irregular troops of Bedouin in sizeable contingents, along with small squadrons of Shayqiyya. These units who functioned much as the Bedouin, in duties such as raiders, scouts, border guards etc. and thier home areas were actually in generally the same regions as that which encompassed the campaign at Tel el Kebir in 1882. Incorporated in these groups were elements of the Beni Amer tribe, actually a component of the large Beja group more familiar in Sudanese areas, but certainly present in these parts of Egypt and Northern Sudan. Here is what is important, I have seen illustrations of the Beni Amer, mounted, wearing chain mail, and kaskaras! It would seem entirely possible, if not likely, that many of these tribesmen would have joined Ahmed Urabi in revolt, along with the profound ties to the Shayqiyya Brotherhood, and Bedouin. Here may be where these clearly Sudanese broadswords may have found thier way into the hands of the 4th/7th Dragoon Guards, just as has been included in RDG's description. It is also worthy of note that , "...the British admiration for an enemy intensified thier desire to collect war trophies". (Maj. Gen. Sir Alexander Bruce Tulloch). Also, noted by war correspondent G.W. Stevens after Omdurman in 1898, the respect the British had for these adversaries remained as he noted, "..our men were perfect, but the Dervishes were superb beyond perfection". The instructions not to wantonly destroy the combatants at Tel el Kebir was certainly to try to defray as much damage as possible in this unfortunate situation, and certainly reflected much of this same perspective. It seems likely of course that many of these forces may have become part of the Khedives forces in the later campaigns. While often times museum attributions and provenances can certainly become clouded over many years, but in this I very much commend RDG for his efforts to find support for that with these kaskaras. It is an example that should be followed by the staff and constituents of all museums, and I hope the discussion here will prove helpful in the further display of these historic swords. All best regards, Jim

20th May 2010, 12:15 PM	#2
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Thank you both for the insights; I shall have to look in to our records (such as they are) to see where we got our caption information. Unfortunately, the records of the 4th DG are sparse (as indeed are all of our records); a fire at their barracks circa 1920 destroyed a great many records going back to the regiment's foundation in 1685, and over the years yet more records have been lost owing to neglect, mishandling, wartime damage (the 5th Dragoon Guards placed their records into safe storage for the Second World War, only for said safe storage facility to be bombed flat by the Luftwaffe - argh!) the sheer ignorance of the squaddies on the importance of such documents (with no offence at all meant; it's not their job to be archivists, it's their job to be good soldiers, and so long as they do that I can forgive them most anything, however frustrating it might be for us down the line), and the habit of QMs to regard these enormous boxes of paper as so much useless encumbrance. I'm told by my boss (an ex-soldier himself) that on many occasions quartermasters would simply detail some luckless corporal and a private (or trooper, in our case) to go through the records and destroy any that weren't absolutely vital - or indeed, just to burn the lot as long as they weren't in use. It makes one bang one's head on the wall nowadays, but one can't really blame them. Regardless, however, we must try. I happen to feel it's my duty to do so, and it's good to see that people appreciate that. Makes one feel quite humbled, really. Aw, shucks! In any event, on with the show. Our final kaskara is much like our second specimen; it's in good condition (for ours, anyway), with its blade largely free from active rust and cleaned up; with that removed a good coating of oil (I cannot recommend Young's "303" enough, since it comes in a spray can and provides a good, durable coating - but am I right?) and some treatment applied, however belatedly, to its leather bindings and pommel should see it through, though I still dislike the unsightly black blotches of inactive corrosion. Once again it has a single, broad fuller, and is fairly sharp though less flexible than any other of the blades, at least to my feeling. The blade also has a design etched into its base, just forward of the top of the langet, on both sides; after numerous unsuccessful attempts to make a rubbing of the wretched thing I decided to draw it instead, so I'm afraid that'll have to do until I can make a proper rubbing of the design, which seems to be carved fairly shallowly into the metal. Though the leather bindings are intact (just), they have begun to come away from the wood and, having I suspect been untreated for some years, are very frail. I've begun applying leather cream to all the leather parts on our swords (and everything else, too, in time) with the aim of trying to restore some of their natural strength and prevent them from disintegrating entirely. Length overall: 39.375in (100cm) Length blade: 34.5in (87.5cm) Length grip: 4.5in (11.5cm) Length fullers: 8.5in (21.5cm) Width: 2in (5cm) at base of blade, tapering to 1.5in (3.8cm) just prior to tip. Tip: Spatulate (?)/"spear-point". Width of cross-guard: 6.895in (16.8cm) Overall views: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/6070/img0429b.jpg http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/7523/img0430j.jpg http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5227/img0431r.jpg Bottom of sword, grip, pommel and cross-guard, prior to treatment: http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9813/img0441qp.jpg http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8207/img0428pa.jpg Detail of design on blade base (probably not much good - sorry about that): http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/9839/img0432am.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9115/img0434yf.jpg http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/3359/img0436hq.jpg Langets, cross-guard and bottom of edge: http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5250/img0438mx.jpg Pommel (and my shirt - admire its stripiness): http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3375/img0439ru.jpg Fuller, base of blade and cross guard: http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2504/img0440n.jpg Reproduction of design on blade - approximately: http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/403/img0465q.jpg

20th May 2010, 10:07 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Yes RDG, appreciation is often a scarcely afforded commodity in our times, but nonetheless, we do what we do I think that what always keeps me charged up is the tremendous satisfaction of discovering things and always hoping others will add to the trove. That doesnt happen as much as I would like to see, but there are some out there with the same passion. Regarding the plight of the records, it seems that is a well known dilemma and so much has been destroyed by war and disaster. One thing I think of as an alternate resource in your case might be the National Army Museum in London. Some years ago, and in quite a number of cases, these folks were wonderfully helpful, and I was truly amazed at the volume of material they have compiled. While official records from one source may have been lost, the donations from private individuals seem to have often ended up here rather than the specialized museums. Once cleaned and stabilized, and along with some photos and display graphics, I think these will offer a great representation of this event in the units history. It is pretty hard to make out much from these images, and I am not computer savvy enough to use all the cropping, brightening features, but this too looks like the very much standard kaskara of the period. The drawing you added seems to stall each time I try to display it, and it would be great to determine more on the blade if I could see it.

20th May 2010, 10:35 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim and RDG , thank you both for your comments. RDG the marking on the 'latest' Kaskara is mentioned in this thread... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...danese+marking Kind Regards David

20th May 2010, 10:44 PM	#5
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	David, absolutely bang on! The one thing that's different is that I'm quite positive (from home) that the diagonal lines run in the perpendicular fashion on our example. If it is a Mahdist symbol, then that dates it very precisely, but... it doesn't mean it's connected to the rest of these blades! For some while - certainly since I have been here, i.e. since November - this blade has lain in our Uniform Store (which is in chaos), in what I can only describe, with the greatest regret, as a disorganised heap of swords, for we have neither a sword rack nor anywhere to put one. This heap, fortunately, contains mostly relatively common British weapons, and doesn't seem to be doing them any harm, since most are in their scabbards. It could thus be that our other examples were taken by the 4th D.G., or indeed the 7th D.G., in the course of the 1882 campaign, while this particular weapon was captured in 1884. Dangit!

21st May 2010, 12:23 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	RDG, in the future could you actually post your images directly to this forum. They are easy to access now, but next month or next year or so you are bound to take these off imageshack and then this will be a long and interesting discussion that has no illustrations of the weapon in question . If you need help we can tell you how to upload directly.

21st May 2010, 01:07 AM	#7
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	I did try uploading to the forum, but unfortunately found that the forum's file server size limits are rather smaller than the images I'm uploading! Is there any way around that? I know ImageShack and the like are distinctly ephemeral storage means, but without uploading them here being possible I'm not sure where else to go. Edit: Of course, I could do the intelligent thing, and crop the images so as to eliminate the honking great background area that's irrelevant to the weapon. I'll try that tomorrow and see what I get, as well as working on getting some better pics of that design.