Oddly constructed cutlass

M ELEY · 17th May 2010, 03:47 AM

Wow, Jim! Amazing that you found this reference that you mentioned. I do hope you didn't lose sleep searching the archives...and deep they must be! After that, I'm imagining you opening the door to the 'book mobile' and tons of papers crashing out. Do be careful-

I do see what you are talking about concerning this sword and I know mine does have quite a bend in its tip section, but I have seen several in Neumann's that are similar. No doubt the Barbary pirates might have had a huge influence on its blade, though, as it is undoubtedly a 19th c. product. One only has to look at the marine mameluke swords to see the attraction. Fascinating that the Spanish were particularly affected. I could see this as a Spanish knock-off of a Brit m1803, with the above said influence.

I will continue to do research on Spanish naval items of this time period. Very sketchy area indeed, after trying to find a single pic of early Span boarding pikes, all I can come up with are references to later 19th c. double headed diamond-shaped patterns. I'm assuming earlier patterns mimiced Euro patterns or were similar to their trench spears.

After reviewing 'Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America' , I found a naval cutlass similar to a Brit pattern m1845, so I'm assuming you might be onto something here, Jim!

M ELEY · 16th June 2010, 09:38 PM

Just can't leave this one alone. I am more and more convinced that it might be older than discussed, perhaps 1810-20. Take a look at this site, example #2 for simolarities...

http://navalswd.com/catalog.php?action=Cutlasses

Later cutlasses had hilts that were more shaped to the hand, versus the plain wrapped sheet iron grips of the earlier pieces. Ribbing started with the m1803 and seems to have continued up to the m1845 Brit pattern. I will post pics of my newest acquisition (

) soon. Another cutlass with VR markings, but definately early Victorian, ca. 1840.

M ELEY · 4th October 2011, 11:02 AM

Well, after many months of debating, I finally took this one to a welding shop to have those more knowledgible look at the braize. It was agreed by all that it was a modern repair. After these folks tried to melt away the brass unsuccessfully with acetyline (turning the surrounding metal a cherry red and burning some of the old paint off), we decided on a differnet route. I had the braize ground smooth to see if my hunch was correct. Happily, it was. This old cutlass was constructed with the tang inserted into the hilt and somehow secured. The modern braise was done to repair a hair-line crack approx 1/8" from where the tang enters the disc guard. After it was shaved down, it looked much better, with the crack just barely visible and the blade still intact. To date, I have only seen one other sword made in a similar way in Neumann's book. Still, among naval collectors, there is no denying that private purchase swords had many, many different forms.

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2011, 06:22 PM

Mark, you are truly a tenacious old sea dog!!! aaarrrrrhhh!

Thank you for reviving this thread, as well as sharing new developments which you thankfully stay after. This is fascinating to learn a little more on the construction of these things. New repairs just reflect at least honest care in preserving these old warriors. As always lots of stories with em, and the modern activity just one more. Well done Captain!!!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 5th October 2011, 07:22 AM

Hello Cap'n Jim. Good to hear from ya!
Yes, ever since Gilkerson had that pic of the oddly constructed "basket-hilt" m1803, I've been fascinated with the private purchase types. I remember when I got this one, the same seller had a "lead-cutter" with the same modern-type braizing to the base of the blade near the hilt. I was worried that the blades weren't original to the hilt, but went for it after all. Maybe the owner just didn't like the looseness in the blades( a common enough occurance). Glad got her even if she's not a pretty specimen. Thanks for commenting, my friend.

17th May 2010, 03:47 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Wow, Jim! Amazing that you found this reference that you mentioned. I do hope you didn't lose sleep searching the archives...and deep they must be! After that, I'm imagining you opening the door to the 'book mobile' and tons of papers crashing out. Do be careful- I do see what you are talking about concerning this sword and I know mine does have quite a bend in its tip section, but I have seen several in Neumann's that are similar. No doubt the Barbary pirates might have had a huge influence on its blade, though, as it is undoubtedly a 19th c. product. One only has to look at the marine mameluke swords to see the attraction. Fascinating that the Spanish were particularly affected. I could see this as a Spanish knock-off of a Brit m1803, with the above said influence. I will continue to do research on Spanish naval items of this time period. Very sketchy area indeed, after trying to find a single pic of early Span boarding pikes, all I can come up with are references to later 19th c. double headed diamond-shaped patterns. I'm assuming earlier patterns mimiced Euro patterns or were similar to their trench spears. After reviewing 'Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America' , I found a naval cutlass similar to a Brit pattern m1845, so I'm assuming you might be onto something here, Jim!

16th June 2010, 09:38 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Beating a dead horse- Just can't leave this one alone. I am more and more convinced that it might be older than discussed, perhaps 1810-20. Take a look at this site, example #2 for simolarities... http://navalswd.com/catalog.php?action=Cutlasses Later cutlasses had hilts that were more shaped to the hand, versus the plain wrapped sheet iron grips of the earlier pieces. Ribbing started with the m1803 and seems to have continued up to the m1845 Brit pattern. I will post pics of my newest acquisition ( ) soon. Another cutlass with VR markings, but definately early Victorian, ca. 1840.

4th October 2011, 11:02 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Well, after many months of debating, I finally took this one to a welding shop to have those more knowledgible look at the braize. It was agreed by all that it was a modern repair. After these folks tried to melt away the brass unsuccessfully with acetyline (turning the surrounding metal a cherry red and burning some of the old paint off), we decided on a differnet route. I had the braize ground smooth to see if my hunch was correct. Happily, it was. This old cutlass was constructed with the tang inserted into the hilt and somehow secured. The modern braise was done to repair a hair-line crack approx 1/8" from where the tang enters the disc guard. After it was shaved down, it looked much better, with the crack just barely visible and the blade still intact. To date, I have only seen one other sword made in a similar way in Neumann's book. Still, among naval collectors, there is no denying that private purchase swords had many, many different forms.

4th October 2011, 06:22 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Mark, you are truly a tenacious old sea dog!!! aaarrrrrhhh! Thank you for reviving this thread, as well as sharing new developments which you thankfully stay after. This is fascinating to learn a little more on the construction of these things. New repairs just reflect at least honest care in preserving these old warriors. As always lots of stories with em, and the modern activity just one more. Well done Captain!!! All the best, Jim

5th October 2011, 07:22 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Cap'n Jim. Good to hear from ya! Yes, ever since Gilkerson had that pic of the oddly constructed "basket-hilt" m1803, I've been fascinated with the private purchase types. I remember when I got this one, the same seller had a "lead-cutter" with the same modern-type braizing to the base of the blade near the hilt. I was worried that the blades weren't original to the hilt, but went for it after all. Maybe the owner just didn't like the looseness in the blades( a common enough occurance). Glad got her even if she's not a pretty specimen. Thanks for commenting, my friend.