Oddly constructed cutlass

M ELEY · 12th May 2010, 03:23 AM

Thanks, Jim, for commenting on this perplexing sword. Most of the time, I can tell when I'm holding out for a positive answer on an item I "want" to be something vs one I truly feel "is" something. The whole feel of this sword, despite its awkward construction, tells me its real. You bring up the point again that this area, like Confederate weapons, espada ancha, Rev War swords, etc, gets alot into the gray zones sometimes. Many naval swords made for merchant ships and privateers were indeed limited productions, with a cutler, smith or sword maker producing limited numbers for a said ship. Likewise, just like the private purchase pikes and axes, they were often made cheap and treated badly. In retrospect, I belive Kronckew is right that the brass is a field repair, but I think one that is contemporary with the whole piece. Likewise, I still think the odd blade went with the hilt, rather similar to many of the blades on Rev War cutlass in Neumann's. Even Gilkerson mentions many thousands of different naval patterns designed by multiple makers between the times of 1801-15 whose records are lost. We just don't know what they even look like.
I had often thought this might have been patterned after the later Brit model m1845, so your mention of the similarities rings true. I agree that it might be of this later period possibly. This is a little later than my favorite area of collecting (Age of Fighting Sail), but still an interesting naval piece. I had always wondered about the lead-cutters and whether they were for cutlass drill or just exercise. Thanks all for responding on this anomaly.

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2010, 12:28 PM

Hi Mark,
I remember that exact feeling well, and my early passions for collecting edged weapons were driven by boundless optimism in hoping to connect my finds to famous periods, events and exciting literature. Actually, in some senses I miss that, but eventually found that there was far more adventure in finding true perspective, and that there was much deeper history yet to be discovered.

The 'gray zones' you have noted with the Civil War weapons and Revolutionary War weapons among collectors are typically the result of either extremely creative opportunists, whether crafty dealers or ambitious private sellers, and above all, the lack of thorough understanding in the nuances in these weapons. Efforts to advance knowledge and add to the standing resources available should add to the ever growing knowledge that will hopefully preserve the history associated with these weapons. It turn this will enable future scholars and collectors to navigate through the ever present sea of chaff that plagues these fields of study.

I think the most important thing to remember in examining weapons of these periods is that they were intended for use in life or death situations rather than to present a certain appearance. If the style or construction was not likely to withstand combat, it may be presumed that the weapon may not hold the degree of integrity hoped for. Also, as eventually the dependance on firearms or variance in strategy rendered use of certain weapons into lesser inevitable position, that degree might also be considered in evaluation.

One of the most intriguing things I see in this cutlass is the extremely unusual upturned point on the blade. I have seen something similar in an illustration of a nimcha if I recall correctly, and it was a line drawing in a French article on weapons fabrication....time for another excavation here in the bookmobile !

I am wondering if, in these times of considerable experimentation in edged weapon technology as noted, that perhaps exposure in the Meditteranean to the dreaded, and much romanticized 'Barbary Pirates' might have lent to consideration of this somewhat radically designed blade.

As always, a fascinating weapon Mark, and more high seas adventure. The age of fighting sail may have ended in certain degree, but high seas adventure still lives.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 13th May 2010, 07:25 AM

Yes, Jim, you do have a point that the structure of the weapon has to be practical to be the real thing. The blade on this one is unusual, but I still think it was a functional one. It carries quite a bit of weight and the blade is sharpened toward the point and more blunt near the hilt. The curve on this cutlass is extreme, but not much different than that found on the m1812. You mention the influence of the Barbary Corsairs on swords- excellent point! I could see this as one following this trend. Officer's swords of this period were indeed affected, with curving blades and mameluke hilts.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2010, 11:21 PM

Hi Mark,
Excavation success!!! I found the article, an obscure reference from a French magazine in 1976 concerning blade types and sections......it is obviously a 'nimcha', well known in French context of course with thier colonial activity in these regions.
This curious 'uptick' on blades seems to be a subtle characteristic on the colonial blades of espada anchas of the early 19th century, and it is worthy of note that there seems to have been considerable association between some Spanish colonial swords and examples of colonial Maghreb weapons.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 17th May 2010, 03:47 AM

Wow, Jim! Amazing that you found this reference that you mentioned. I do hope you didn't lose sleep searching the archives...and deep they must be! After that, I'm imagining you opening the door to the 'book mobile' and tons of papers crashing out. Do be careful-

I do see what you are talking about concerning this sword and I know mine does have quite a bend in its tip section, but I have seen several in Neumann's that are similar. No doubt the Barbary pirates might have had a huge influence on its blade, though, as it is undoubtedly a 19th c. product. One only has to look at the marine mameluke swords to see the attraction. Fascinating that the Spanish were particularly affected. I could see this as a Spanish knock-off of a Brit m1803, with the above said influence.

I will continue to do research on Spanish naval items of this time period. Very sketchy area indeed, after trying to find a single pic of early Span boarding pikes, all I can come up with are references to later 19th c. double headed diamond-shaped patterns. I'm assuming earlier patterns mimiced Euro patterns or were similar to their trench spears.

After reviewing 'Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America' , I found a naval cutlass similar to a Brit pattern m1845, so I'm assuming you might be onto something here, Jim!

M ELEY · 16th June 2010, 09:38 PM

Just can't leave this one alone. I am more and more convinced that it might be older than discussed, perhaps 1810-20. Take a look at this site, example #2 for simolarities...

http://navalswd.com/catalog.php?action=Cutlasses

Later cutlasses had hilts that were more shaped to the hand, versus the plain wrapped sheet iron grips of the earlier pieces. Ribbing started with the m1803 and seems to have continued up to the m1845 Brit pattern. I will post pics of my newest acquisition (

) soon. Another cutlass with VR markings, but definately early Victorian, ca. 1840.

M ELEY · 4th October 2011, 11:02 AM

Well, after many months of debating, I finally took this one to a welding shop to have those more knowledgible look at the braize. It was agreed by all that it was a modern repair. After these folks tried to melt away the brass unsuccessfully with acetyline (turning the surrounding metal a cherry red and burning some of the old paint off), we decided on a differnet route. I had the braize ground smooth to see if my hunch was correct. Happily, it was. This old cutlass was constructed with the tang inserted into the hilt and somehow secured. The modern braise was done to repair a hair-line crack approx 1/8" from where the tang enters the disc guard. After it was shaved down, it looked much better, with the crack just barely visible and the blade still intact. To date, I have only seen one other sword made in a similar way in Neumann's book. Still, among naval collectors, there is no denying that private purchase swords had many, many different forms.

16th May 2010, 11:21 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Mark, Excavation success!!! I found the article, an obscure reference from a French magazine in 1976 concerning blade types and sections......it is obviously a 'nimcha', well known in French context of course with thier colonial activity in these regions. This curious 'uptick' on blades seems to be a subtle characteristic on the colonial blades of espada anchas of the early 19th century, and it is worthy of note that there seems to have been considerable association between some Spanish colonial swords and examples of colonial Maghreb weapons. All the best, Jim Attached Images

16th June 2010, 09:38 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Beating a dead horse- Just can't leave this one alone. I am more and more convinced that it might be older than discussed, perhaps 1810-20. Take a look at this site, example #2 for simolarities... http://navalswd.com/catalog.php?action=Cutlasses Later cutlasses had hilts that were more shaped to the hand, versus the plain wrapped sheet iron grips of the earlier pieces. Ribbing started with the m1803 and seems to have continued up to the m1845 Brit pattern. I will post pics of my newest acquisition ( ) soon. Another cutlass with VR markings, but definately early Victorian, ca. 1840.

12th May 2010, 03:23 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks, Jim, for commenting on this perplexing sword. Most of the time, I can tell when I'm holding out for a positive answer on an item I "want" to be something vs one I truly feel "is" something. The whole feel of this sword, despite its awkward construction, tells me its real. You bring up the point again that this area, like Confederate weapons, espada ancha, Rev War swords, etc, gets alot into the gray zones sometimes. Many naval swords made for merchant ships and privateers were indeed limited productions, with a cutler, smith or sword maker producing limited numbers for a said ship. Likewise, just like the private purchase pikes and axes, they were often made cheap and treated badly. In retrospect, I belive Kronckew is right that the brass is a field repair, but I think one that is contemporary with the whole piece. Likewise, I still think the odd blade went with the hilt, rather similar to many of the blades on Rev War cutlass in Neumann's. Even Gilkerson mentions many thousands of different naval patterns designed by multiple makers between the times of 1801-15 whose records are lost. We just don't know what they even look like. I had often thought this might have been patterned after the later Brit model m1845, so your mention of the similarities rings true. I agree that it might be of this later period possibly. This is a little later than my favorite area of collecting (Age of Fighting Sail), but still an interesting naval piece. I had always wondered about the lead-cutters and whether they were for cutlass drill or just exercise. Thanks all for responding on this anomaly.

12th May 2010, 12:28 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Mark, I remember that exact feeling well, and my early passions for collecting edged weapons were driven by boundless optimism in hoping to connect my finds to famous periods, events and exciting literature. Actually, in some senses I miss that, but eventually found that there was far more adventure in finding true perspective, and that there was much deeper history yet to be discovered. The 'gray zones' you have noted with the Civil War weapons and Revolutionary War weapons among collectors are typically the result of either extremely creative opportunists, whether crafty dealers or ambitious private sellers, and above all, the lack of thorough understanding in the nuances in these weapons. Efforts to advance knowledge and add to the standing resources available should add to the ever growing knowledge that will hopefully preserve the history associated with these weapons. It turn this will enable future scholars and collectors to navigate through the ever present sea of chaff that plagues these fields of study. I think the most important thing to remember in examining weapons of these periods is that they were intended for use in life or death situations rather than to present a certain appearance. If the style or construction was not likely to withstand combat, it may be presumed that the weapon may not hold the degree of integrity hoped for. Also, as eventually the dependance on firearms or variance in strategy rendered use of certain weapons into lesser inevitable position, that degree might also be considered in evaluation. One of the most intriguing things I see in this cutlass is the extremely unusual upturned point on the blade. I have seen something similar in an illustration of a nimcha if I recall correctly, and it was a line drawing in a French article on weapons fabrication....time for another excavation here in the bookmobile ! I am wondering if, in these times of considerable experimentation in edged weapon technology as noted, that perhaps exposure in the Meditteranean to the dreaded, and much romanticized 'Barbary Pirates' might have lent to consideration of this somewhat radically designed blade. As always, a fascinating weapon Mark, and more high seas adventure. The age of fighting sail may have ended in certain degree, but high seas adventure still lives. All the best, Jim

13th May 2010, 07:25 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes, Jim, you do have a point that the structure of the weapon has to be practical to be the real thing. The blade on this one is unusual, but I still think it was a functional one. It carries quite a bit of weight and the blade is sharpened toward the point and more blunt near the hilt. The curve on this cutlass is extreme, but not much different than that found on the m1812. You mention the influence of the Barbary Corsairs on swords- excellent point! I could see this as one following this trend. Officer's swords of this period were indeed affected, with curving blades and mameluke hilts.

17th May 2010, 03:47 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Wow, Jim! Amazing that you found this reference that you mentioned. I do hope you didn't lose sleep searching the archives...and deep they must be! After that, I'm imagining you opening the door to the 'book mobile' and tons of papers crashing out. Do be careful- I do see what you are talking about concerning this sword and I know mine does have quite a bend in its tip section, but I have seen several in Neumann's that are similar. No doubt the Barbary pirates might have had a huge influence on its blade, though, as it is undoubtedly a 19th c. product. One only has to look at the marine mameluke swords to see the attraction. Fascinating that the Spanish were particularly affected. I could see this as a Spanish knock-off of a Brit m1803, with the above said influence. I will continue to do research on Spanish naval items of this time period. Very sketchy area indeed, after trying to find a single pic of early Span boarding pikes, all I can come up with are references to later 19th c. double headed diamond-shaped patterns. I'm assuming earlier patterns mimiced Euro patterns or were similar to their trench spears. After reviewing 'Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America' , I found a naval cutlass similar to a Brit pattern m1845, so I'm assuming you might be onto something here, Jim!

4th October 2011, 11:02 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Well, after many months of debating, I finally took this one to a welding shop to have those more knowledgible look at the braize. It was agreed by all that it was a modern repair. After these folks tried to melt away the brass unsuccessfully with acetyline (turning the surrounding metal a cherry red and burning some of the old paint off), we decided on a differnet route. I had the braize ground smooth to see if my hunch was correct. Happily, it was. This old cutlass was constructed with the tang inserted into the hilt and somehow secured. The modern braise was done to repair a hair-line crack approx 1/8" from where the tang enters the disc guard. After it was shaved down, it looked much better, with the crack just barely visible and the blade still intact. To date, I have only seen one other sword made in a similar way in Neumann's book. Still, among naval collectors, there is no denying that private purchase swords had many, many different forms.