comments on this barung lamenation?

[Spunjer]

thought i'd share pics of this beautiful barung. although the main reason why this barung got my attention was because of the shandigan blade, i had a pleasant surprise when i recieved it. the blade has a different lamenation from what i've seen on the few that i have and other examples i saw over the internet. where most lamenations i've seen reminds me of topographical map, this one, the lamenation lines runs in the same direction. the closest comparison that i saw was on artzi's website. he referred to it as 'layered welded blade'. this one seems to be pretty close to his example, where the lamenation lines running parallel to the blade. i wish i had a better camera to get the whole picture. the water lines would start from the where the handle ends and goes all the way tothe point of the blade. tom, or anybody else, could you please elaborate on this type of lamenation pattern? would this be an example of the scarf weld you mentioned?

as for the barung itself, it looks to be an older type, perhaps 19th century? the scabbard is ridgeless with real thin rattan bindings. the kakatua plume is small, almost none existent and it has a plain anadorned beak. tausug maybe?

the ferrule is silver but it's covered with patina. normally, i like to keep the ferrule shiny, but for some reason, the patina adds some serious character to the barung itself. the seller erroeously listed the ferrule binds as rattan but it's actually jute that one normally sees on barung, although this one is caked with patina. please enjoy the pics. comments are definitely welcome...

[tom hyle]

It looks like the body of the sword is built up of folded or layered metal with enough contrast between layers to make one suspect the contrast is deliberate; perhaps for appearance, or perhaps for a performance quality. There also appears to be an inlaid steel edge. If you look at the spine at the tip you may be able to see the edge bit pinched into a slot in the blade? The body metal is probably made by forge-welding a piece of steel to a piece of iron, then folding that (not very many times; the layers are large). The photos are nice, but they have their limitations; for instance the spine of the blade is often where you can see how the flatness of the layers run (ie. are the layers in the plain of the blade or are they perpendicular to it) I think you said they are parrallel, or in the same plain as the flatness of the blade. The shandigan profile makes it harder to tell, since the surface kind of swoops trough the layers. One occasionally sees Moro blades with "panel welding" like we'd expect on Yataghans or swerts/spathas (Oriental Arms had one or more example of this), but more commonly the layering runs in the plain of the blade. The whole issue of patterning on Moro blades seems to just be coming to light, and AFAIK it is still fairly mysterious. Every nation cannot be Japan and write the stuff down for us, and in all fairness, much of what they did has fallen to the difficulties of time, war, disaster, etc.....A scarf-welded edge bit would be one that was hammered on to one side of the blade, rather than being pinched into a centralized slot, and would be characterized by being visible for a very short distance on one side of the blade (only where the sharpening bevel comes down thru it), very narrow, as with an inlaid (pinched in, dogged in, qiangong) edge, but on the other flat it will be very wide because you see the whole piece of steel that is welded on. A place you can see this fairly readily on a modern commercially available product you can look at on the internet is Japanese fish knives. As with these it is usually encountered with a "chisel" or one-sided edge bevel.

[Spunjer]

thx tom. i can't get right lighting to show the blade's full glory. looking on the spine i could see, albeit barely, watermarks (with s) running parallel to it. it's more obvious towards the blade tip. i wouldn't even think about re-etching this; might end up screwing it altogether. your comment about the contrast being deliberate is interesting. i thought about it from that angle, too. from the appearance point of view, why then would the panday add a fairly plain handle? you'd think with a blade like this a junggayan type would be more appropriate. which leads me to your second guess: performance quality. if you notice the blade tip picture, it has some nicks on it. looks like it has seen some action before.
again, the watermarks really blows my mind. it looks as if someone painted flames racing on both sides of the blade; that's it; it looks like it's on fire. almost to the point were watermarks first, shandigan characteristic a close second. it's so beautiful. never seen anything like it.

[Rick]

Bizarro barong blade pattern .
12" very thick & heavy .
Can't figure out how this one was made ... Tom ?

[Ian]

Tom:

How does one distinguish an inserted edge on a laminated blade, from a tempered edge where the edge has been laminated (but not inserted)?

Do you follow my question? I'm asking about a blade that is first laminated and then tempered along the edge by (say) quenching -- how does one distinguish the appearance of that process from a blade that is laminated and has an inserted edge of hardened steel?

Ian.

[Ian]

Rick:

Seems to me that this one has been folded along the long axis of the blade (that is, along the length of the blade), then the blade was forged to its width and approximate shape, and then ground to its final form. What we are seeing, I think, is a series of layers that vary simply with the thickness of the blade, rather than a more complex pattern caused by twisting, etc. during the forging process.

Ian.

Originally Posted by Rick

Bizarro barong blade pattern .
12" very thick & heavy .
Can't figure out how this one was made ... Tom ?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Ian

Rick:

Seems to me that this one has been folded along the long axis of the blade (that is, along the length of the blade), then the blade was forged to its width and approximate shape, and then ground to its final form. What we are seeing, I think, is a series of layers that vary simply with the thickness of the blade, rather than a more complex pattern caused by twisting, etc. during the forging process.

Ian.

Is this the same method of forging that was used to produce Spunjer's blade ?
It looks a little similar what with the layer lines looking like they're going to either side of the blade from a center line .

[Ian]

Rick:

I think your's and Spunjer's are made similarly. But don't forget the profile of his blade is different from your's. Basically, your blade is a tapering "V" but Spunjer's is somewhat hollow ground above a swollen edge, with a pronounced ridge separating the two. Just by the nature of the grind on Spunjer's you would expect to see more patterning because more layers are being exposed by virtue of the grinding. The fact that there is considerable contrast between the metals of the various layers makes Spunjer's pattern more obvious.

Ian.

[RSWORD]

I will take a poke at these two pieces. Spunjers example appears to be of pile construction. That is where various bars of steel/iron are used, "piled" upon one another and forged out. The lamination that is seen is a result of the different metals etching out in different ways. In Rick's example, I believe the blade is of sandwhich construction. The center portion or body of the blade is lamellar steel with a long forging flaw down the center. The cutting edge is probably a higher carbon steel that has been sandwhiched and then heat treated. I believe it was then put to a post-quench annealing. The edge has a hamon-like feature(even has a bit of a cloudy appearance) and this is typical in the sandwhich lamination. There seem to be small isolated islands just above the "temper" line in a few spots. I believe the Japanese call these Utsuri(?) and this is a result of a post-quench annealing. I think there might be a seperate spine welded to the body to complete the blade. Overall, a fairly complicated forging with beautiful lines and I imagine quite a sharp and hard edge.

[tom hyle]

Rick's blade does seem to have an applied spine, which as far as I see, is the only unusual thing about it. A mysterious feature I've seen on a variety of swords. It does not particularly look like a sandwiched blade; where would you get that from? A pinched in edge that does not go all the way thru is more likely on a barong, though, of course, one cannot see the difference in a flatwise picture of a SE blade. Both these blades seem to show a long line down the center from a final fold, perpendicular to the plain of the blade (and made before edge insertion). An interesting thing about this is that it is common with Visayan blades to have the last fold leave a prominant closed loop/bend at the tip. How else would it be? folded flatwise. With the loop at the rear. With the loop cut off (often considered a weak/delammy place in many cultures, but here I think we see the Oceanic E Asian concept of completeness.). The spreading of the lines and then coming back together is a natural outgrowth of forging the barong shape; a thick narrow rod is forged out wider and then narrowed to the tip, and is spread out thinner and thinner....
On distinguishing an inlaid edge from a hardening line: It can be hard, especially from photos or with an unetched blade. The easiest way is to follow the layers. If the line follows the waves of the layers it's probably inlaid; if it cuts across the layers and they continue right across it, it must be a hardening line. Another is if you can see it at spine and tip. Outside of Japan temper lines are almost always more or less even/straight (ie. not waved, though they may curve), so if there's a lot of activity that points you toward a lamination line. Of course a blade might have both.

[Gt Obach]

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......

( oh... and billet was also shimmed between the billet on the last fold )


forging a billet out on its welds like this.... really tests how strong your forge welds are....because a poor weld will delaminate easy....

by the way......I love these Barongs .... some day i'll get my mitts on one...

cool post
Greg

[Federico]

Fairly common lamination pattern, done very well. Part of the problem with the net, while a great resource, tends to have a limited selection of actual examples, so it can be hard to guage commonality just on the web. Have a few barongs with similar construction, though in varying degrees of finesse. I figure you could easily say pre WWII for the piece, there isnt a center ridge on the scabbard (hallmark of a post WWII scabbard). Though, at least from the cockatua, I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......


Greg

I'm almost 100% sure that what Rsword meant by "sandwich" is what is (incorrectly from what I'm told) called "san mai" in USA; a full-width layer of edge steel welded between two full-width side plates of iron or lower carbon steel.
Otherwise, I basically agree. I don't think the edge bits were welded on before the final fold, as you propose, and I highly suspect they are pinced into the edge of the blade. Both blades show some sign of this.

[Gt Obach]

oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates...

as for the center .... its to your advantage to add a layer inbetween when you fold steel... it makes up for the steel lost due to forge scale... (therefore keeping your billet from shrinking in size)

as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal)

but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines....

heres a little knife I just made..... cept its got twists and folded...... and no outer edge......but it has the lines

http://gal.bladesmith.org/view_album...e=greg_t_obach

Greg

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates...
Greg

Yes, and when you have a sandwich like that part way into the process and you turn it on its edge and smash it flat in the perpendicular plane, so the previously wide layers are now narrow panels, calling that final product a sandwich is stretching clarity. Also, as I say, I'm almost certain it isn't what Rsword meant.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal)

but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines....


Greg

This all may seem sensible, but what I'm speaking from about oceanic SE Asian swords is not sense and reason; it is experience; in my experience the pinched edge is common; the butt welded edge is uncommon, and in older European blacksmithing books (I can't read the Asian ones) is spoken of as being weak. One does see it on many swords, however, including Moro ones, and it is possible here (though likely made in layers and upended the bodies of these swords could be spoken of as composed of narrow buttwelded panels). These just do not look like buttwelds I have seen of this type, which tend to be fairly straight; they look like pinched in edges I've seen, but that is indeed an awful fine distinction to make from photos. I've little doubt that in person either of us could fairly easily see which it is, but seeing this stuff does not come easy to everyone; minds are different from each other. I by no means think it's impossible the edges are butt welded; I just doubt it.

[Spunjer]

WW! didn't realize this thread was going to get this much response! thanks for everyone's comments. sure learned a lot about forging. but what is the difference between pile and sandwich? sounds like it's the same process. tom, i know you brought up on another thread how lamination style could be an age indicator. would be nice if that can be proven on barungs, since the laminations are more readily available on these weapons. as for what i got, i wasn't aware this type of lamination was common; i just never saw other examples. thanks for the pic, rick. it does look similar to mine. mind showing the full sword ?
federico, could you please elaborate when you wrote:

"...I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete."

by that, did you mean because it came with the scabbard?

[Rick]

Not at all Spujer .
Interestingly the punto cup is filled with lead .

[Federico]

Hello Spunjer

By complete I mean it doesnt look like its had parts swapped around, eg. original hilt, scabbard, etc... My own personal feeling (not some resounding decree, just an opinion) is this is a transitional piece, bridging the time after the American takeover to WWII. So anywhere between 1900-WWII. Since it bares so much resemblence to more modern pieces, I would even go further to guess around 1920-WWII, a time period when lots of the modern traits start to pop up, from one piece kris (eg. no separable gangya), blockish cockatua (eg. the modern style), upturned barung scabbards (modern style), thinner rattan, etc... Anyways, thats just an opinion, could very well be older, newer, from another dimension, etc.. However, given the most common time of collection, for the vast variety of Moro Swords in the US is after 1900, I figure odds of getting a pre-1900 piece in general really depends on how many warriors brought old blades to the battle, which while not un-common, I figure a larger number would bring their own personal piece that was made for them in relatively recent years. I like my father's gun, but my newly made Kimber is far more reliable and accurate, so I tend to take that to the range. Then again, there is that whole Pusaka factor, older blades may have more power, but then just in general, one doesnt see old blades worn to often in period pics, usually contemporary pieces (given the time of the pic). Oh well, another nonsensical rambling post.

[zamboanga]

are there any theories on the evolution of the shandigan barongs? any particular period they evolved?

from what I have heard from some of the locals, shandigan barongs were influenced by yakan piras (the later forms and not the older types) which regularly have shandigan features.

[Federico]

Carlo so far you have the most info Ive seen on this style. Ive never heard the pira influence before. In Cecil's catalog he mentions they were made by grinding of the top side of the blade (though I bet instead of grinding away precious steel they were probably forged that way at least from a contruction point it would be easier to forge than to grind by hand that much steel) to reduce weight but keep a strong cutting edge. I do know that most of the Shandigan pieces I have seen pop up on the market have been WWII era pieces, but there are a number of earlier ones that pop up on occaision. However, with dating schemes the way they are (guessing schemes more like it) its hard to tell if these early pieces are post 1900 or 300 years old. Though what it sounds like from what you have been told, and the higher incidence of newer made barongs with this feature, it may have been a newer (eg. post American era) invention. It would be interesting to see if anyone had a Shandigan barong with provenance earlier than the American era. Anyways, just my rambling guesses.

[Spunjer]

beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle?

federico,
your theory is plausible. not that it matters much, but i'm hoping it is a 19thc. piece. why? i don't know. i just like the way it sounds, lol. "19th c. shandigan Barung".
i believe ian brought this up a few months ago, about shandigans flourishing post 1900's. as for a pre span-am war era, would the infamous god of war barung from the Mets qualify as one? now, if that's a pre-1900, why isn't the shandigan type more prevalent? is it reserved for a certain class? since the blade is in the sheath when not in use, i guess we can disregard the reason that it was made for looks, right?

[Federico]

Spunjer

Now that you say it, 19th Century Shandigan Barong does roll off the lips very nicely. Anyways, no real insights into the matter, just thinking out loud. Its just a high rate of incidence in newer style pieces, whereas there are so few old style ones. Then throw in the difficulty in dating old ones without provenance (if we believe Cato the old style continued well up into the 30s), then its difficult to say oh thats definitely a 19th century piece vs something made in say 1912. I like Cecil's notion, that the were made this way to reduce weight. The vast majority of this style I have encountered (including my own) have been no-frills fighting pieces, and who would be more concerned with wieght and balance than someone with a no-frills fighting blade. Mine at least is definitely one of my lighter and more graceful barongs, despite it being the longest one I have. Makes great sense particularly as newer blades got longer, the extra length would thus add weight, and that could definitely effect fighting balance. I know if someone told me I could have the extra length but the same weight as a smaller piece, I would definitely jump at the chance. Oh well just more rambling thoughts.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle?

Pictures are better than words .
You can see the P.O.B. .
The braiding is resined woven fiber of some sort .

I don't study FMA so I'm afraid I couldn't comment much on handling , but it feels balanced and fast , weighted to the center of percussion rather than tip heavy .
The blade is 1/4" thick and only 11 1/2" long with very little distal taper until the last 2" so I doubt that the small amount of lead makes much difference .
This sword would seem to combine the impact power of a larger blade in a very compact package .

Any comments on age anyone ?

[tom hyle]

Interesting; I just got a Batangas(?) sword whose ferule end and tang tip have been poured in with lead. This is often seen on underclass/Indian N American stuff?
I have an idea that hollow ground flats are something that kind of swept through oceanic E Asia at some time (early 20th....?.....), perhaps viewed as a mark of modernity/Europeanism? Perhaps related to the hollowed-flat kukuri? I've seen it on old Moro swords, Japanese swords, Indonesian swords, and on many newer PI swords that seem to be made on Luzon/Batangas.
I have not owned a shandigan barong. Is it as if a regular barong had been made a wide shallow groove into, or as if a regular barong had an added ridge of metal at the top of a secondary bevel? Seem a fine distinction? It is, and may not be consistant among examples; to some extent a matter of philosophy/viewpoint, but the crux of the biscuit is: Is the angle of the edge bevel more acute, more obtuse, or the same on shandigan and flat barongs? Is the edge bevel also hollow ground?

[Rick]

This little fella pictured above your post Tom is most definitely not hollow ground . More like an apple seed in cross section .

BTW , when looking at the spine of the blade there are three distinct layers that I can see .

[Federico]

Originally Posted by Rick

Any comments on age anyone ?

It's old Definitely a pre-30s piece, the rear crest flows nicely from the butt line of the pommel. Combine that with a small blade, very likely a good old piece (now you can figure out what "old" means to you).

[Battara]

On my datu piece the hilt is also filled with lead.

[Spunjer]

battara, you reckon the lead is there for balance? but if it's a datu piece, it's not primarily meant for daily use so what's the purpose? maybe, nothing more than a panday's choice?

rick, it looks as if yours would be the barung of choice by juramentados, due to its size. been looking for the small ones myself...

[Ian]

Spunjer:

I don't think we can equate "datu quality" with purely ceremonial use. Within the culture a datu's weapons are meant to be fully functional, even if highly decorated. Perhaps there is an occasional primarily ceremonial item among royalty, but this one is not so highly decorated as to fit that category. I'd say this barung was a high ranking person's regular side arm and ready for serious business. Having a well balanced blade would make sense.

Also, in some cultures, lead has almost a precious metal status. I can't recall where I read that, but perhaps it applies in Moroland too. In which case lead would be again a symbol of prestige and power.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

battara, you reckon the lead is there for balance? but if it's a datu piece, it's not primarily meant for daily use so what's the purpose? maybe, nothing more than a panday's choice?