JAPANESE WAR FANS

asomotif · 7th May 2010, 12:06 PM

Hello Jason,

To be frank,I have no knowledge on martial arts except for 10 lessons in Kendo I once followed.
I have no doubt that the video's you show us are ancient techniques.

But personally I also feel it hard to imagine that a serious stroke with a katana can be effectively stopped by a metal rod of approx 30 cms, without hand guard.
That is probably also David's point of view on this.

Also the technique where the katana is fixed by the fan and the tanto looks rather scary to me.
The katana is only 40 or 50 cms away from the defenders private parts.
If the attacker would step foreward I can imagine that he would cause some serious damage while still keeping out of reach of the fan and tanto

But then again, I can easily be wrong as I do like collecting edged weapons, but normally stay very very far from using them.

Jason Anstey · 7th May 2010, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Jason,

To be frank,I have no knowledge on martial arts except for 10 lessons in Kendo I once followed.
I have no doubt that the video's you show us are ancient techniques.

But personally I also feel it hard to imagine that a serious stroke with a katana can be effectively stopped by a metal rod of approx 30 cms, without hand guard.
That is probably also David's point of view on this.

Also the technique where the katana is fixed by the fan and the tanto looks rather scary to me.
The katana is only 40 or 50 cms away from the defenders private parts.
If the attacker would step foreward I can imagine that he would cause some serious damage while still keeping out of reach of the fan and tanto

But then again, I can easily be wrong as I do like collecting edged weapons, but normally stay very very far from using them.

No problems. The thing to understand from the clips posted is that these are "embu" ie demonstrations of the art. THey are showing kata. THe kata consists of various principles and techniques. THe vids are not demonstration 'how to do this if someone does this' Normally demonstrations of this nature are for dojo only.

I understand that this site(which I am a big fan of for its knowledge and absence of wannabe ninjas) is for ethnographic weapon discussions. If I posted a picture of a weapon like the attached image and said this was based on reality - I would get smashed down - and rightly so.

Now, I have seen this thread - and I thank the OP for this, that I have a great deal of interest in both martial and collecting and I merely sought to show examples of accepted good form.

Hiroi Sensei who David mentioned as "comical" is actually one of the most respected martial artist in all of Japan regardless of school, he was a legend. So I though people would appreciate seeing something different without the Youtube martial arts $$ signs.

What I would like is for people to watch the embu again and see the angles shown in the slo-mo of the jutte and tessen in regards to the sword - one blocks and the other deflects the follow through of blade so the blocking hand is not cut off.

THese weapons were used primarily by the edo period police who did not wear swords (generalisation for the purpose of a short discussion)

Anyway it is a discussion that could go on way too long - and I apologise if I have ruffled feathers - my intention was to add to the OP not to take away the value of Vandoos post.

Battara · 7th May 2010, 08:00 PM

In some ways, this reminds me of Filipino escrima, especially the style from the Visayas that uses a smaller still (whose name I forget now - serrada?).

fearn · 7th May 2010, 08:42 PM

One addition that may help:

We're dealing with a couple of different time periods here.

The Tokugawa shogunate caused substantial changes in Japanese martial culture, and the techniques shown here are useful for countering "peacetime" samurai. This is what most classical budo is: these are traditions that developed under the Tokugawa. The classical bujutsu that preceded the Tokugawa is preserved (AFAIK) mostly by the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

One good way of seeing the change brought by the Tokugawa is the mitsu-dogu. These are three weapons used in concert to restrain swordsmen. The classical trio were three polearms used in concert: the satsumata, the sodegarami, and the tsukubo (Image). Under the Tokugawa, these became symbolic, and the mitsu-dogu used by Tokugawa police were the jutte, the manriki-gusari weighted chain, and the rokushakubo, or six foot staff, and they were employed independently, rather than in concert. This may say more about the relative quality of the swordsmen, rather than that the smaller weapons were better than the polearms.

Systematic uses of war fans documentably date back to the sixteenth century (Shinkage Ryu), and they're certainly older as weapons. Still, the forms have evolved over the times.

(source: Draeger's Classical Bujutsu).

VANDOO · 8th May 2010, 05:27 AM

ALL THE VIDEOS DO SHOW LEGITIMATE TECKNIQUES. THE ONE I MENTIONED SHOWS SEVERAL BASIC TECKNIQUES AND WHICH TARGETS TO STRIKE AND IN SOME CASES EXPLAINS THE DAMMAGE DONE.
THE OTHER ONE SHOWS A BASIC CROSS BLOCKING TECKNIQUE USING THE FAN AS WELL AS THE JUTTE. THE CROSS BLOCK IS A STRONG ONE AS WOULD BE NEEDED TO STOP A SWORD BLOW AND IS DESIGNED TO CATCH AND ABSORB THE FORCE OF THE SWORD STRIKE. THIS BLOCK CAN USE THE ARMS TO EFFECTIVELY BLOCK AGAINST A CLUB OR STICK WITHOUT GETTING AN ARM BROKEN. BUT THE BLOCK WITH THE ARMS WILL NOT WORK AGAINST A SWORD UNLESS SOME SORT OF ARMOR IS PRESENT. THE CROSS BLOCK WITH THE ARMS ABSORBS AND STOPS THE FORCE AND ALLOWS ONE TO THEN GET A CHANCE TO TAKE THE STICK AWAY IF DONE FAST AND PROPERLY. SEVERAL VARIATIONS ON THE BLOCKING TECKNIQUE ARE WELL DEMONSTRATED IN THE VIDEO. THE USE OF THE FAN AND JUTTE IS MUCH SAFER THAN JUST TRYING TO DEAL WITH THE SWORD WITH JUST ONE JUTTE OR FAN.
NORMALY THE FAN IS ONLY GOOD TO DEFLECT OR TO STRIKE SOFT TARGETS OR PRESSURE POINTS AS SHOWN IN THE TESSENNINJA VIDEO. TWO SAI OR JUTTE WOULD BE BETTER FOR DEALING WITH A SWORD THAN THE WAR FANS. THE FAN WAS NOT A PRIMARY WEAPON JUST SOMETHING THAT COULD BE DESIGNED TO SERVE AS ONE WHILE LOOKING LIKE A HARMLESS FAN. I FEEL THINGS CAN BE LEARNED FROM ANY SCHOOL OF MARTIAL ART REGADLESS OF ITS LINAGE OR THE NAME IT CHOSES TO USE. IF THE TECKNIQUE IS WELL EXECUTED AND NOT DONE POORLY AND IS EXPLAINED AND DONE IN SUCH A WAY AS IT CAN BE SEEN AND UNDERSTOOD SOMETHING CAN BE LEARNED.
THE WAR FANS WERE SPECIALIZED ITEMS THAT MOSTLY SERVED PURPOSES OTHER THAN USE AS WEAPONS BUT IN A PINCH DID SAVE A FEW WARRIORS. ONE GENERAL WAS SAID TO HAVE FOUGHT OFF AN ENEMY GENERAL WHO BROKE THRU THE LINES AND RODE INTO HIS TENT TAKEING HIM BY SURPRIZE. TAKEING ON A FULLY ARMED SAMAURAI ON HORSE BACK IN A TENT WITH A FAN (NOW THATS A VIDEO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE)

NO DOUBT THERE WERE MASTERS WHO PRACTICED FAN TECKNIQUES AND BECAME VERY SKILLED IN THEIR USE AS A WEAPON BUT MOST WARRIORS WOULD PROBABLY HAVE ONLY KNOWN VERY BASIC TECKNIQUE.

THERE IS A POST ON THE POLE ARMS USED TO CATCH SAMAURAI SOMEWHERE ON THE FORUM FOR THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEARCH IT OUT.
THE POST WAS (JAPANESE SLEEVE ENTANGLERS) BY VANDOO IN JANUARY 2008

8th May 2010, 05:27 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ALL THE VIDEOS DO SHOW LEGITIMATE TECKNIQUES. THE ONE I MENTIONED SHOWS SEVERAL BASIC TECKNIQUES AND WHICH TARGETS TO STRIKE AND IN SOME CASES EXPLAINS THE DAMMAGE DONE. THE OTHER ONE SHOWS A BASIC CROSS BLOCKING TECKNIQUE USING THE FAN AS WELL AS THE JUTTE. THE CROSS BLOCK IS A STRONG ONE AS WOULD BE NEEDED TO STOP A SWORD BLOW AND IS DESIGNED TO CATCH AND ABSORB THE FORCE OF THE SWORD STRIKE. THIS BLOCK CAN USE THE ARMS TO EFFECTIVELY BLOCK AGAINST A CLUB OR STICK WITHOUT GETTING AN ARM BROKEN. BUT THE BLOCK WITH THE ARMS WILL NOT WORK AGAINST A SWORD UNLESS SOME SORT OF ARMOR IS PRESENT. THE CROSS BLOCK WITH THE ARMS ABSORBS AND STOPS THE FORCE AND ALLOWS ONE TO THEN GET A CHANCE TO TAKE THE STICK AWAY IF DONE FAST AND PROPERLY. SEVERAL VARIATIONS ON THE BLOCKING TECKNIQUE ARE WELL DEMONSTRATED IN THE VIDEO. THE USE OF THE FAN AND JUTTE IS MUCH SAFER THAN JUST TRYING TO DEAL WITH THE SWORD WITH JUST ONE JUTTE OR FAN. NORMALY THE FAN IS ONLY GOOD TO DEFLECT OR TO STRIKE SOFT TARGETS OR PRESSURE POINTS AS SHOWN IN THE TESSENNINJA VIDEO. TWO SAI OR JUTTE WOULD BE BETTER FOR DEALING WITH A SWORD THAN THE WAR FANS. THE FAN WAS NOT A PRIMARY WEAPON JUST SOMETHING THAT COULD BE DESIGNED TO SERVE AS ONE WHILE LOOKING LIKE A HARMLESS FAN. I FEEL THINGS CAN BE LEARNED FROM ANY SCHOOL OF MARTIAL ART REGADLESS OF ITS LINAGE OR THE NAME IT CHOSES TO USE. IF THE TECKNIQUE IS WELL EXECUTED AND NOT DONE POORLY AND IS EXPLAINED AND DONE IN SUCH A WAY AS IT CAN BE SEEN AND UNDERSTOOD SOMETHING CAN BE LEARNED. THE WAR FANS WERE SPECIALIZED ITEMS THAT MOSTLY SERVED PURPOSES OTHER THAN USE AS WEAPONS BUT IN A PINCH DID SAVE A FEW WARRIORS. ONE GENERAL WAS SAID TO HAVE FOUGHT OFF AN ENEMY GENERAL WHO BROKE THRU THE LINES AND RODE INTO HIS TENT TAKEING HIM BY SURPRIZE. TAKEING ON A FULLY ARMED SAMAURAI ON HORSE BACK IN A TENT WITH A FAN (NOW THATS A VIDEO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE) NO DOUBT THERE WERE MASTERS WHO PRACTICED FAN TECKNIQUES AND BECAME VERY SKILLED IN THEIR USE AS A WEAPON BUT MOST WARRIORS WOULD PROBABLY HAVE ONLY KNOWN VERY BASIC TECKNIQUE. THERE IS A POST ON THE POLE ARMS USED TO CATCH SAMAURAI SOMEWHERE ON THE FORUM FOR THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEARCH IT OUT. THE POST WAS (JAPANESE SLEEVE ENTANGLERS) BY VANDOO IN JANUARY 2008 Last edited by VANDOO; 8th May 2010 at 05:38 AM.

7th May 2010, 12:06 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Hello Jason, To be frank,I have no knowledge on martial arts except for 10 lessons in Kendo I once followed. I have no doubt that the video's you show us are ancient techniques. But personally I also feel it hard to imagine that a serious stroke with a katana can be effectively stopped by a metal rod of approx 30 cms, without hand guard. That is probably also David's point of view on this. Also the technique where the katana is fixed by the fan and the tanto looks rather scary to me. The katana is only 40 or 50 cms away from the defenders private parts. If the attacker would step foreward I can imagine that he would cause some serious damage while still keeping out of reach of the fan and tanto But then again, I can easily be wrong as I do like collecting edged weapons, but normally stay very very far from using them.

7th May 2010, 08:00 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	In some ways, this reminds me of Filipino escrima, especially the style from the Visayas that uses a smaller still (whose name I forget now - serrada?).

7th May 2010, 08:42 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	One addition that may help: We're dealing with a couple of different time periods here. The Tokugawa shogunate caused substantial changes in Japanese martial culture, and the techniques shown here are useful for countering "peacetime" samurai. This is what most classical budo is: these are traditions that developed under the Tokugawa. The classical bujutsu that preceded the Tokugawa is preserved (AFAIK) mostly by the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. One good way of seeing the change brought by the Tokugawa is the mitsu-dogu. These are three weapons used in concert to restrain swordsmen. The classical trio were three polearms used in concert: the satsumata, the sodegarami, and the tsukubo (Image). Under the Tokugawa, these became symbolic, and the mitsu-dogu used by Tokugawa police were the jutte, the manriki-gusari weighted chain, and the rokushakubo, or six foot staff, and they were employed independently, rather than in concert. This may say more about the relative quality of the swordsmen, rather than that the smaller weapons were better than the polearms. Systematic uses of war fans documentably date back to the sixteenth century (Shinkage Ryu), and they're certainly older as weapons. Still, the forms have evolved over the times. (source: Draeger's Classical Bujutsu).