mysterious marking on kaskara

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2010, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Maybe if I post this enough times ....

Know what you mean Rick! The one I have with the mark is in distinctly Darfur mounts (according to Reed). Im beginning to think this may well be a stylized native version of the Kull mark.

Cuirassier · 24th July 2011, 11:27 AM

Sorry to raise the dead (subject).

I have bought a kaskara with these same marks. It was a punt, outside my normal field of sword interest & knowledge. I have also now (I think) managed to secure / buy a copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks, which also lists these same marks as the one Stephen posted regarding the Sword of Raidera.

I hope I will get my copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks soon (I always fear those dreaded words "Sorry, I have already sold it and forgot to remove my advertisment / the listing").

In the mean time, does anyone have a copy / know the maker, date, details etc? I have posted images below. It is a strange looking beast but I think the kaskara was built that way as the pommel also has the Abyssinian? lion on it. Any information you could share would be appreciated.

Bom dia from Portugal
I actually live opposite the Spanish town of Salvaterra de Mino which is where the Napoleonic French army decided to cut and run (literally) during the Peninsula War discarding, it is alleged, their weapons en mass as they did so. So why are there absolutely no Napoleonic swords to be found here?!
Mark

Cuirassier · 25th July 2011, 08:34 AM

Sorry, I either missed posting the photo of the kaskara or it did not show, so here it is.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2011, 02:57 PM

Hi Mark,
It is always great to see these older threads posted with new information and examples! Thank you, and welcome, glad you're with us.
Kaskaras are one of the most fascinating edged weapons as they are often revealing in our understanding of the history of these Sudanese regions and culture, and actually are pretty much even a present day weapon in degree.

Yours is modern in the mounts, but the blade seems older of course. These swords were heirlooms in many cases, and typically often rehilted, so the hilt on yours is a bit of an anomoly, and the pommel and grip a bit different from most we see.

Most of these fairly modern kaskaras are 'kasallawi', that is furbished in the Kassala regions, and often using very old blades handed down for many generations or in as many cases, traded. They are most often Hadendoa weapons, and it is difficult to distinguish further which tribal entity within these confederations these kaskara fall into.

The markings with the rampant lion, the cross and orb and the 'fly' are well crafted native interpretations of older European markings which have been around from the much earlier trade blades often diffused through the vast trade networks across the Sahara. The 'fly' mark as discussed, derives primarily from the markings of the Kull family of Solingen, and is shown as either Peter or Samuel's markings presumed from about 1847 into c.1870.
The natives often integrated these markings into thier own traditional allegoric parlance, and the fly was believed to represent the warriors skill at elusive dexterity in combat.
They believed the cross and orb represented the drum, representing courage, and the rampant lion represents brave warriors as well.
These interpretations are from Ed Hunleys outstanding dissertation on the sword and knife makers of Kassala (posted on our website here).

I would say your blade has some age, probably into latter 19th century, and was probably into the present mounts, in this incarnation, as late as 1960, hard to say.

Keep in mind, these kaskara are still important status symbols to tribal people, and age of the weapon is perceived quite differently by us as collectors, than to those who view them as a continued tradition.

Hope this is of some help,
All the best,
Jim

P.S. the reason most historic weapons do not remain in location is that they have been collected away over many generations. In most cases with battlefields, these were scavenged and looted soon after the event, and the weapons were often sold off in bundles as surplus. Many of course became souveniers. In the Sudan, there was such demand for souveniers that the manufacture of items was actually engaged in England to provide native type items to the vendors there to sell. The most reliable sources we have are well provenanced items collected by troops immediately after battles, which have come down through estates and those now in museums.

Cuirassier · 27th July 2011, 04:32 PM

Thanks for that. The problem for me is I do not believe the blade is that recent. The markings, which I think you have alluded to, could well have been added at a later date. The passant lion done with copper (or possibly gold, but I think copper), plus the orb I am sure have been added to the blade sometime after the blade was made. The orb for example shows the pitting / tiny pot holes of the metal underneath, so these tiny holes were there when the orb was added. I can not see the mayfly marks easily, as they are hidden under the langets, but again these could have been added later.

Very old blades are not my thing. I love Napoleonic and more recent swords most. But I have seen and handled a number of older blades, as I have handled kaskaras, some of which had trade blades.

The blade I have is naturally aged; I think the photos show this. I do not believe a blade made in Prussia mid-late 19th Century would a) have this amount of aging and b) have aged like this one has, especially given the dry arid conditions of Somalia, etc. The blade has pitting and corrosion not from rust (as well I know that "friend" very well). I do not think a Solingen blade maker would have made anything so "rustic" (thinking back to the orb and tiny aging or forging holes); the other trade blades I have seen in kaskaras were not like this. It is difficult because kaskara blades were modeled on ancient blades, so this one could have been made any time from 1100 to 1900, but I am so sure it is not 18th / 19th Century I am going to try and find a carbon dating facility here in Portugal to see if it can be accurately age dated.

So watch this space!
Cheers
Mark

stephen wood · 28th July 2011, 01:28 AM

Blades with these markings are noted as being imported to Kordofan and Darfur in the 1830's.

Edster · 28th July 2011, 01:36 AM

This is an interesting thread. Brings back lots of memories.

I am intrigued by Mark's sword. It is stylistically unique, at least to me. I am not familiar with the style of grip and handle. Also, the long piece perpendicular to the cross guard (don't know its technical name) appears to be riveted to the grip and due to its length must have been forge welded to the cross piece. The gross piece itself is tapered and appears to be of good quality and maybe early 19th Century.

The blade is also interesting. I agree with you Mark that it just looks old. The small missing peace appears to be an old chip-out possible from being struck from another sword. It some how looks thicker than many I have seen and may have been made from wrought iron, thus not an imported trade blade. Many of the native Sudanese blades of the Mahdi period and well before were brittle and broke during battle. It could well be an heirloom blade done up in more modern livery

As has been noted several times on the Forum, we have no good means to date blades. The oldest kaskara I know of with attribution are museum pieces reputed to have belonged to Ali Dinar around 1821, I think. That blade is presumably imported. Maker's marks are of some help since the "maker" has a known production life span, but many marks are copied or intrepeted locally as those posts discuss above.

Perhaps we can develop a data base of metallurgical analysis. This may be difficult with collector pieces in that investigation leaves a mark about the size of a dime. Photomicrographs requires an etching and polishing a small portion of the blade, but the crystaline structure of the blade can be very telling. Is it wrought iron, mild steel, carbon steel, other alloy steel? Was it work hardened or quenched and tempered or just quenched? My knowledge is limited to memories of metallurgical course some 50 years ago, but I enjoyed the lab work.

The watershed in native Sudanese blade materials came with the British occupation and railroad construction after 1899 when modern steel became available locally and in large amounts. At least in 1986 and probably before Kassala blades were made from lorry leaf springs. This material no doubt has a metallurgical signature, likewise do Soligen and other import blades as well as wrought iron. I have seen demonstrations of leaf spring Kassala blades being bent almost double and spring back without any evidence of set. (The process can be tricky and dangerous if you don't have the knack.) Also, by holding the blade pointed up it can be shook rapidly and seem to quiver in your hand. Will older European blades, perhaps not made of spring steeel do that?

Who on the forum has metallurgical expertise and maybe a metallurgical microscope and Brinnel hardness tester, and who has blades that they would be willing to suffer a polished spot as a sample? Perhaps we could do a workshop next year at Timonium with esperts who knows what they are talking about. Certainly not me.

Regards,
Ed

Jeff D · 28th July 2011, 04:15 AM

I have the exact same blade in much better condition. As stated by Jim the maker is Kull and is mid 19th Century. See this thread for pictures and references.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Cronau

All the Best
Jeff

24th July 2011, 11:27 AM	#2
Cuirassier Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5	Subject rekindled? Sorry to raise the dead (subject). I have bought a kaskara with these same marks. It was a punt, outside my normal field of sword interest & knowledge. I have also now (I think) managed to secure / buy a copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks, which also lists these same marks as the one Stephen posted regarding the Sword of Raidera. I hope I will get my copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks soon (I always fear those dreaded words "Sorry, I have already sold it and forgot to remove my advertisment / the listing"). In the mean time, does anyone have a copy / know the maker, date, details etc? I have posted images below. It is a strange looking beast but I think the kaskara was built that way as the pommel also has the Abyssinian? lion on it. Any information you could share would be appreciated. Bom dia from Portugal I actually live opposite the Spanish town of Salvaterra de Mino which is where the Napoleonic French army decided to cut and run (literally) during the Peninsula War discarding, it is alleged, their weapons en mass as they did so. So why are there absolutely no Napoleonic swords to be found here?! Mark Attached Images

25th July 2011, 08:34 AM	#3
Cuirassier Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5	Other photo Sorry, I either missed posting the photo of the kaskara or it did not show, so here it is. Attached Images

27th July 2011, 04:32 PM	#5
Cuirassier Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5	Hi Jim Thanks for that. The problem for me is I do not believe the blade is that recent. The markings, which I think you have alluded to, could well have been added at a later date. The passant lion done with copper (or possibly gold, but I think copper), plus the orb I am sure have been added to the blade sometime after the blade was made. The orb for example shows the pitting / tiny pot holes of the metal underneath, so these tiny holes were there when the orb was added. I can not see the mayfly marks easily, as they are hidden under the langets, but again these could have been added later. Very old blades are not my thing. I love Napoleonic and more recent swords most. But I have seen and handled a number of older blades, as I have handled kaskaras, some of which had trade blades. The blade I have is naturally aged; I think the photos show this. I do not believe a blade made in Prussia mid-late 19th Century would a) have this amount of aging and b) have aged like this one has, especially given the dry arid conditions of Somalia, etc. The blade has pitting and corrosion not from rust (as well I know that "friend" very well). I do not think a Solingen blade maker would have made anything so "rustic" (thinking back to the orb and tiny aging or forging holes); the other trade blades I have seen in kaskaras were not like this. It is difficult because kaskara blades were modeled on ancient blades, so this one could have been made any time from 1100 to 1900, but I am so sure it is not 18th / 19th Century I am going to try and find a carbon dating facility here in Portugal to see if it can be accurately age dated. So watch this space! Cheers Mark

26th July 2011, 02:57 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	Hi Mark, It is always great to see these older threads posted with new information and examples! Thank you, and welcome, glad you're with us. Kaskaras are one of the most fascinating edged weapons as they are often revealing in our understanding of the history of these Sudanese regions and culture, and actually are pretty much even a present day weapon in degree. Yours is modern in the mounts, but the blade seems older of course. These swords were heirlooms in many cases, and typically often rehilted, so the hilt on yours is a bit of an anomoly, and the pommel and grip a bit different from most we see. Most of these fairly modern kaskaras are 'kasallawi', that is furbished in the Kassala regions, and often using very old blades handed down for many generations or in as many cases, traded. They are most often Hadendoa weapons, and it is difficult to distinguish further which tribal entity within these confederations these kaskara fall into. The markings with the rampant lion, the cross and orb and the 'fly' are well crafted native interpretations of older European markings which have been around from the much earlier trade blades often diffused through the vast trade networks across the Sahara. The 'fly' mark as discussed, derives primarily from the markings of the Kull family of Solingen, and is shown as either Peter or Samuel's markings presumed from about 1847 into c.1870. The natives often integrated these markings into thier own traditional allegoric parlance, and the fly was believed to represent the warriors skill at elusive dexterity in combat. They believed the cross and orb represented the drum, representing courage, and the rampant lion represents brave warriors as well. These interpretations are from Ed Hunleys outstanding dissertation on the sword and knife makers of Kassala (posted on our website here). I would say your blade has some age, probably into latter 19th century, and was probably into the present mounts, in this incarnation, as late as 1960, hard to say. Keep in mind, these kaskara are still important status symbols to tribal people, and age of the weapon is perceived quite differently by us as collectors, than to those who view them as a continued tradition. Hope this is of some help, All the best, Jim P.S. the reason most historic weapons do not remain in location is that they have been collected away over many generations. In most cases with battlefields, these were scavenged and looted soon after the event, and the weapons were often sold off in bundles as surplus. Many of course became souveniers. In the Sudan, there was such demand for souveniers that the manufacture of items was actually engaged in England to provide native type items to the vendors there to sell. The most reliable sources we have are well provenanced items collected by troops immediately after battles, which have come down through estates and those now in museums.

28th July 2011, 01:28 AM	#6
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Blades with these markings are noted as being imported to Kordofan and Darfur in the 1830's.

28th July 2011, 01:36 AM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	This is an interesting thread. Brings back lots of memories. I am intrigued by Mark's sword. It is stylistically unique, at least to me. I am not familiar with the style of grip and handle. Also, the long piece perpendicular to the cross guard (don't know its technical name) appears to be riveted to the grip and due to its length must have been forge welded to the cross piece. The gross piece itself is tapered and appears to be of good quality and maybe early 19th Century. The blade is also interesting. I agree with you Mark that it just looks old. The small missing peace appears to be an old chip-out possible from being struck from another sword. It some how looks thicker than many I have seen and may have been made from wrought iron, thus not an imported trade blade. Many of the native Sudanese blades of the Mahdi period and well before were brittle and broke during battle. It could well be an heirloom blade done up in more modern livery As has been noted several times on the Forum, we have no good means to date blades. The oldest kaskara I know of with attribution are museum pieces reputed to have belonged to Ali Dinar around 1821, I think. That blade is presumably imported. Maker's marks are of some help since the "maker" has a known production life span, but many marks are copied or intrepeted locally as those posts discuss above. Perhaps we can develop a data base of metallurgical analysis. This may be difficult with collector pieces in that investigation leaves a mark about the size of a dime. Photomicrographs requires an etching and polishing a small portion of the blade, but the crystaline structure of the blade can be very telling. Is it wrought iron, mild steel, carbon steel, other alloy steel? Was it work hardened or quenched and tempered or just quenched? My knowledge is limited to memories of metallurgical course some 50 years ago, but I enjoyed the lab work. The watershed in native Sudanese blade materials came with the British occupation and railroad construction after 1899 when modern steel became available locally and in large amounts. At least in 1986 and probably before Kassala blades were made from lorry leaf springs. This material no doubt has a metallurgical signature, likewise do Soligen and other import blades as well as wrought iron. I have seen demonstrations of leaf spring Kassala blades being bent almost double and spring back without any evidence of set. (The process can be tricky and dangerous if you don't have the knack.) Also, by holding the blade pointed up it can be shook rapidly and seem to quiver in your hand. Will older European blades, perhaps not made of spring steeel do that? Who on the forum has metallurgical expertise and maybe a metallurgical microscope and Brinnel hardness tester, and who has blades that they would be willing to suffer a polished spot as a sample? Perhaps we could do a workshop next year at Timonium with esperts who knows what they are talking about. Certainly not me. Regards, Ed

28th July 2011, 04:15 AM	#8
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	I have the exact same blade in much better condition. As stated by Jim the maker is Kull and is mid 19th Century. See this thread for pictures and references. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Cronau All the Best Jeff