mysterious marking on kaskara

Jambu · 7th May 2010, 12:17 AM

I neglected to mention that the sword pictured above has two blade markings, similar to example B. pictured in the above reference. The fly type mark is found in the fuller just above the Languet, opposite side of blade from the Lion Marking.

The seller was an ex US Army Soldier who had been at Kagnew Army base in Asmara and had obtained the sword in the early 70's, no other information available.

Rick · 7th May 2010, 12:31 AM

Maybe if I post this enough times ....

stephen wood · 7th May 2010, 01:37 AM

I was able to find something similar here

When I recently took it to an Arms Fair in London most people who saw it thought it looked older than most kaskaras. It had been said by Christie's to be '1780's or earlier' according to its previous owner.

It may have been shortened at some time but if so this was very long ago.

Also two structural anomalies stand out:

- the pommel is wooden covered with leather rather than the more usual coiled leather strip.

- the blade is not recessed into a slot in the crossguard.

Jambu · 7th May 2010, 02:00 AM

Hi Rick, I also have a Kaskara with this mark, but I have no idea what it signifies.
The sword was purchased by me last year in a village outside Port Sudan. It was a very exciting experience to say the least. I first found a guy selling a sword or two in the market in the Town Centre, but his asking prices were ludicrous. After making some friends and asking around I was advised to travel to a village about 20 min out of town where there is a market operated by the Beja Tribesmen. After looking around at a few camel saddles and other Beja neccessities, I showed some interest in a couple of 'Saif,' I was soon surrounded by 40 or 50 men and boys waving swords in my face

and crowding in all around me, trying to sell of course.
I didn't know much of anything about Kaskara but had researched a little about what would be a good souvenir from Sudan just before I left for Sudan.
Most of the Swords were rather new or if old were in poor shape, but I believe they had better examples that were put away and not for sell. I bargained hard and bought a couple of swords and all sales and cash had to pass through a village headman.
I became very fascinated with these Beja and their Arms and Armour and have done a lot of reading on this website and other sources. I have even bought a few other beja items online since then. I hope to return to Sudan oneday. Sorry I can't offer any serious research, just ancedotes

J Jambu

Rick · 7th May 2010, 02:43 AM

Yep .

Darfur style .
Nice hilting but different fullering considering they share the same style of mark .

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1967

A European origin has been suggested here but not proven .

*Paging Jim ; here's another .

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2010, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Maybe if I post this enough times ....

Know what you mean Rick! The one I have with the mark is in distinctly Darfur mounts (according to Reed). Im beginning to think this may well be a stylized native version of the Kull mark.

Cuirassier · 24th July 2011, 11:27 AM

Sorry to raise the dead (subject).

I have bought a kaskara with these same marks. It was a punt, outside my normal field of sword interest & knowledge. I have also now (I think) managed to secure / buy a copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks, which also lists these same marks as the one Stephen posted regarding the Sword of Raidera.

I hope I will get my copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks soon (I always fear those dreaded words "Sorry, I have already sold it and forgot to remove my advertisment / the listing").

In the mean time, does anyone have a copy / know the maker, date, details etc? I have posted images below. It is a strange looking beast but I think the kaskara was built that way as the pommel also has the Abyssinian? lion on it. Any information you could share would be appreciated.

Bom dia from Portugal
I actually live opposite the Spanish town of Salvaterra de Mino which is where the Napoleonic French army decided to cut and run (literally) during the Peninsula War discarding, it is alleged, their weapons en mass as they did so. So why are there absolutely no Napoleonic swords to be found here?!
Mark

Cuirassier · 25th July 2011, 08:34 AM

Sorry, I either missed posting the photo of the kaskara or it did not show, so here it is.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2011, 02:57 PM

Hi Mark,
It is always great to see these older threads posted with new information and examples! Thank you, and welcome, glad you're with us.
Kaskaras are one of the most fascinating edged weapons as they are often revealing in our understanding of the history of these Sudanese regions and culture, and actually are pretty much even a present day weapon in degree.

Yours is modern in the mounts, but the blade seems older of course. These swords were heirlooms in many cases, and typically often rehilted, so the hilt on yours is a bit of an anomoly, and the pommel and grip a bit different from most we see.

Most of these fairly modern kaskaras are 'kasallawi', that is furbished in the Kassala regions, and often using very old blades handed down for many generations or in as many cases, traded. They are most often Hadendoa weapons, and it is difficult to distinguish further which tribal entity within these confederations these kaskara fall into.

The markings with the rampant lion, the cross and orb and the 'fly' are well crafted native interpretations of older European markings which have been around from the much earlier trade blades often diffused through the vast trade networks across the Sahara. The 'fly' mark as discussed, derives primarily from the markings of the Kull family of Solingen, and is shown as either Peter or Samuel's markings presumed from about 1847 into c.1870.
The natives often integrated these markings into thier own traditional allegoric parlance, and the fly was believed to represent the warriors skill at elusive dexterity in combat.
They believed the cross and orb represented the drum, representing courage, and the rampant lion represents brave warriors as well.
These interpretations are from Ed Hunleys outstanding dissertation on the sword and knife makers of Kassala (posted on our website here).

I would say your blade has some age, probably into latter 19th century, and was probably into the present mounts, in this incarnation, as late as 1960, hard to say.

Keep in mind, these kaskara are still important status symbols to tribal people, and age of the weapon is perceived quite differently by us as collectors, than to those who view them as a continued tradition.

Hope this is of some help,
All the best,
Jim

P.S. the reason most historic weapons do not remain in location is that they have been collected away over many generations. In most cases with battlefields, these were scavenged and looted soon after the event, and the weapons were often sold off in bundles as surplus. Many of course became souveniers. In the Sudan, there was such demand for souveniers that the manufacture of items was actually engaged in England to provide native type items to the vendors there to sell. The most reliable sources we have are well provenanced items collected by troops immediately after battles, which have come down through estates and those now in museums.

Cuirassier · 27th July 2011, 04:32 PM

Thanks for that. The problem for me is I do not believe the blade is that recent. The markings, which I think you have alluded to, could well have been added at a later date. The passant lion done with copper (or possibly gold, but I think copper), plus the orb I am sure have been added to the blade sometime after the blade was made. The orb for example shows the pitting / tiny pot holes of the metal underneath, so these tiny holes were there when the orb was added. I can not see the mayfly marks easily, as they are hidden under the langets, but again these could have been added later.

Very old blades are not my thing. I love Napoleonic and more recent swords most. But I have seen and handled a number of older blades, as I have handled kaskaras, some of which had trade blades.

The blade I have is naturally aged; I think the photos show this. I do not believe a blade made in Prussia mid-late 19th Century would a) have this amount of aging and b) have aged like this one has, especially given the dry arid conditions of Somalia, etc. The blade has pitting and corrosion not from rust (as well I know that "friend" very well). I do not think a Solingen blade maker would have made anything so "rustic" (thinking back to the orb and tiny aging or forging holes); the other trade blades I have seen in kaskaras were not like this. It is difficult because kaskara blades were modeled on ancient blades, so this one could have been made any time from 1100 to 1900, but I am so sure it is not 18th / 19th Century I am going to try and find a carbon dating facility here in Portugal to see if it can be accurately age dated.

So watch this space!
Cheers
Mark

7th May 2010, 12:17 AM	#1
Jambu Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Posts: 17	For future reference I neglected to mention that the sword pictured above has two blade markings, similar to example B. pictured in the above reference. The fly type mark is found in the fuller just above the Languet, opposite side of blade from the Lion Marking. The seller was an ex US Army Soldier who had been at Kagnew Army base in Asmara and had obtained the sword in the early 70's, no other information available. Attached Images

7th May 2010, 12:31 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Maybe Maybe if I post this enough times .... Attached Images

7th May 2010, 01:37 AM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	I was able to find something similar here When I recently took it to an Arms Fair in London most people who saw it thought it looked older than most kaskaras. It had been said by Christie's to be '1780's or earlier' according to its previous owner. It may have been shortened at some time but if so this was very long ago. Also two structural anomalies stand out: - the pommel is wooden covered with leather rather than the more usual coiled leather strip. - the blade is not recessed into a slot in the crossguard. Attached Images

7th May 2010, 02:00 AM	#4
Jambu Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: USA Posts: 17	Rick, I have this mark too Hi Rick, I also have a Kaskara with this mark, but I have no idea what it signifies. The sword was purchased by me last year in a village outside Port Sudan. It was a very exciting experience to say the least. I first found a guy selling a sword or two in the market in the Town Centre, but his asking prices were ludicrous. After making some friends and asking around I was advised to travel to a village about 20 min out of town where there is a market operated by the Beja Tribesmen. After looking around at a few camel saddles and other Beja neccessities, I showed some interest in a couple of 'Saif,' I was soon surrounded by 40 or 50 men and boys waving swords in my face and crowding in all around me, trying to sell of course. I didn't know much of anything about Kaskara but had researched a little about what would be a good souvenir from Sudan just before I left for Sudan. Most of the Swords were rather new or if old were in poor shape, but I believe they had better examples that were put away and not for sell. I bargained hard and bought a couple of swords and all sales and cash had to pass through a village headman. I became very fascinated with these Beja and their Arms and Armour and have done a lot of reading on this website and other sources. I have even bought a few other beja items online since then. I hope to return to Sudan oneday. Sorry I can't offer any serious research, just ancedotes J Jambu Attached Images Last edited by Jambu; 7th May 2010 at 02:50 AM.

24th July 2011, 11:27 AM	#7
Cuirassier Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5	Subject rekindled? Sorry to raise the dead (subject). I have bought a kaskara with these same marks. It was a punt, outside my normal field of sword interest & knowledge. I have also now (I think) managed to secure / buy a copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks, which also lists these same marks as the one Stephen posted regarding the Sword of Raidera. I hope I will get my copy of 1000 Blademaker Marks soon (I always fear those dreaded words "Sorry, I have already sold it and forgot to remove my advertisment / the listing"). In the mean time, does anyone have a copy / know the maker, date, details etc? I have posted images below. It is a strange looking beast but I think the kaskara was built that way as the pommel also has the Abyssinian? lion on it. Any information you could share would be appreciated. Bom dia from Portugal I actually live opposite the Spanish town of Salvaterra de Mino which is where the Napoleonic French army decided to cut and run (literally) during the Peninsula War discarding, it is alleged, their weapons en mass as they did so. So why are there absolutely no Napoleonic swords to be found here?! Mark Attached Images

7th May 2010, 02:43 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Yep . Darfur style . Nice hilting but different fullering considering they share the same style of mark . http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1967 A European origin has been suggested here but not proven . *Paging Jim ; here's another .

25th July 2011, 08:34 AM	#8
Cuirassier Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5	Other photo Sorry, I either missed posting the photo of the kaskara or it did not show, so here it is. Attached Images

26th July 2011, 02:57 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Hi Mark, It is always great to see these older threads posted with new information and examples! Thank you, and welcome, glad you're with us. Kaskaras are one of the most fascinating edged weapons as they are often revealing in our understanding of the history of these Sudanese regions and culture, and actually are pretty much even a present day weapon in degree. Yours is modern in the mounts, but the blade seems older of course. These swords were heirlooms in many cases, and typically often rehilted, so the hilt on yours is a bit of an anomoly, and the pommel and grip a bit different from most we see. Most of these fairly modern kaskaras are 'kasallawi', that is furbished in the Kassala regions, and often using very old blades handed down for many generations or in as many cases, traded. They are most often Hadendoa weapons, and it is difficult to distinguish further which tribal entity within these confederations these kaskara fall into. The markings with the rampant lion, the cross and orb and the 'fly' are well crafted native interpretations of older European markings which have been around from the much earlier trade blades often diffused through the vast trade networks across the Sahara. The 'fly' mark as discussed, derives primarily from the markings of the Kull family of Solingen, and is shown as either Peter or Samuel's markings presumed from about 1847 into c.1870. The natives often integrated these markings into thier own traditional allegoric parlance, and the fly was believed to represent the warriors skill at elusive dexterity in combat. They believed the cross and orb represented the drum, representing courage, and the rampant lion represents brave warriors as well. These interpretations are from Ed Hunleys outstanding dissertation on the sword and knife makers of Kassala (posted on our website here). I would say your blade has some age, probably into latter 19th century, and was probably into the present mounts, in this incarnation, as late as 1960, hard to say. Keep in mind, these kaskara are still important status symbols to tribal people, and age of the weapon is perceived quite differently by us as collectors, than to those who view them as a continued tradition. Hope this is of some help, All the best, Jim P.S. the reason most historic weapons do not remain in location is that they have been collected away over many generations. In most cases with battlefields, these were scavenged and looted soon after the event, and the weapons were often sold off in bundles as surplus. Many of course became souveniers. In the Sudan, there was such demand for souveniers that the manufacture of items was actually engaged in England to provide native type items to the vendors there to sell. The most reliable sources we have are well provenanced items collected by troops immediately after battles, which have come down through estates and those now in museums.

27th July 2011, 04:32 PM	#10
Cuirassier Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5	Hi Jim Thanks for that. The problem for me is I do not believe the blade is that recent. The markings, which I think you have alluded to, could well have been added at a later date. The passant lion done with copper (or possibly gold, but I think copper), plus the orb I am sure have been added to the blade sometime after the blade was made. The orb for example shows the pitting / tiny pot holes of the metal underneath, so these tiny holes were there when the orb was added. I can not see the mayfly marks easily, as they are hidden under the langets, but again these could have been added later. Very old blades are not my thing. I love Napoleonic and more recent swords most. But I have seen and handled a number of older blades, as I have handled kaskaras, some of which had trade blades. The blade I have is naturally aged; I think the photos show this. I do not believe a blade made in Prussia mid-late 19th Century would a) have this amount of aging and b) have aged like this one has, especially given the dry arid conditions of Somalia, etc. The blade has pitting and corrosion not from rust (as well I know that "friend" very well). I do not think a Solingen blade maker would have made anything so "rustic" (thinking back to the orb and tiny aging or forging holes); the other trade blades I have seen in kaskaras were not like this. It is difficult because kaskara blades were modeled on ancient blades, so this one could have been made any time from 1100 to 1900, but I am so sure it is not 18th / 19th Century I am going to try and find a carbon dating facility here in Portugal to see if it can be accurately age dated. So watch this space! Cheers Mark