comments on this barung lamenation?

Spunjer · 3rd June 2005, 05:21 PM

beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle?

federico,
your theory is plausible. not that it matters much, but i'm hoping it is a 19thc. piece. why? i don't know. i just like the way it sounds, lol. "19th c. shandigan Barung".
i believe ian brought this up a few months ago, about shandigans flourishing post 1900's. as for a pre span-am war era, would the infamous god of war barung from the Mets qualify as one? now, if that's a pre-1900, why isn't the shandigan type more prevalent? is it reserved for a certain class? since the blade is in the sheath when not in use, i guess we can disregard the reason that it was made for looks, right?

Federico · 3rd June 2005, 07:35 PM

Spunjer

Now that you say it, 19th Century Shandigan Barong does roll off the lips very nicely. Anyways, no real insights into the matter, just thinking out loud. Its just a high rate of incidence in newer style pieces, whereas there are so few old style ones. Then throw in the difficulty in dating old ones without provenance (if we believe Cato the old style continued well up into the 30s), then its difficult to say oh thats definitely a 19th century piece vs something made in say 1912. I like Cecil's notion, that the were made this way to reduce weight. The vast majority of this style I have encountered (including my own) have been no-frills fighting pieces, and who would be more concerned with wieght and balance than someone with a no-frills fighting blade. Mine at least is definitely one of my lighter and more graceful barongs, despite it being the longest one I have. Makes great sense particularly as newer blades got longer, the extra length would thus add weight, and that could definitely effect fighting balance. I know if someone told me I could have the extra length but the same weight as a smaller piece, I would definitely jump at the chance. Oh well just more rambling thoughts.

Rick · 3rd June 2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle?

Pictures are better than words .

You can see the P.O.B. .
The braiding is resined woven fiber of some sort .

I don't study FMA so I'm afraid I couldn't comment much on handling , but it feels balanced and fast , weighted to the center of percussion rather than tip heavy .
The blade is 1/4" thick and only 11 1/2" long with very little distal taper until the last 2" so I doubt that the small amount of lead makes much difference .
This sword would seem to combine the impact power of a larger blade in a very compact package .

Any comments on age anyone ?

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 03:00 AM

Interesting; I just got a Batangas(?) sword whose ferule end and tang tip have been poured in with lead. This is often seen on underclass/Indian N American stuff?
I have an idea that hollow ground flats are something that kind of swept through oceanic E Asia at some time (early 20th....?.....), perhaps viewed as a mark of modernity/Europeanism? Perhaps related to the hollowed-flat kukuri? I've seen it on old Moro swords, Japanese swords, Indonesian swords, and on many newer PI swords that seem to be made on Luzon/Batangas.
I have not owned a shandigan barong. Is it as if a regular barong had been made a wide shallow groove into, or as if a regular barong had an added ridge of metal at the top of a secondary bevel? Seem a fine distinction? It is, and may not be consistant among examples; to some extent a matter of philosophy/viewpoint, but the crux of the biscuit is: Is the angle of the edge bevel more acute, more obtuse, or the same on shandigan and flat barongs? Is the edge bevel also hollow ground?

Rick · 4th June 2005, 03:56 AM

This little fella pictured above your post Tom is most definitely not hollow ground . More like an apple seed in cross section .

BTW , when looking at the spine of the blade there are three distinct layers that I can see .

Federico · 4th June 2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Any comments on age anyone ?

It's old

Definitely a pre-30s piece, the rear crest flows nicely from the butt line of the pommel. Combine that with a small blade, very likely a good old piece (now you can figure out what "old" means to you).

Battara · 4th June 2005, 10:47 AM

On my datu piece the hilt is also filled with lead.

Spunjer · 4th June 2005, 12:23 PM

battara, you reckon the lead is there for balance? but if it's a datu piece, it's not primarily meant for daily use so what's the purpose? maybe, nothing more than a panday's choice?

rick, it looks as if yours would be the barung of choice by juramentados, due to its size. been looking for the small ones myself...

Ian · 4th June 2005, 01:21 PM

Spunjer:

I don't think we can equate "datu quality" with purely ceremonial use. Within the culture a datu's weapons are meant to be fully functional, even if highly decorated. Perhaps there is an occasional primarily ceremonial item among royalty, but this one is not so highly decorated as to fit that category. I'd say this barung was a high ranking person's regular side arm and ready for serious business. Having a well balanced blade would make sense.

Also, in some cultures, lead has almost a precious metal status. I can't recall where I read that, but perhaps it applies in Moroland too. In which case lead would be again a symbol of prestige and power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

battara, you reckon the lead is there for balance? but if it's a datu piece, it's not primarily meant for daily use so what's the purpose? maybe, nothing more than a panday's choice?

Spunjer · 4th June 2005, 01:42 PM

hehe, sorry, should've been more specific. i was referring to battara's barung.

Quote:

On my datu piece the hilt is also filled with lead.

btw, can lead be polished to a certain point? that would definitely look more prestigious (if polished) than just having a black gal-gal...

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 02:16 PM

Rick, curiuoser and curiouser; three layers to the spine you say? And from the flat it appears to be an applied spine...........?..........
I'll give another crack to what I was trying to ask though, as I've recieved no input. On shandigan barongs is the edge bevel also hollow ground, flat, or humped? If it is hollow ground, this puts them in a category with other E Asian hollow ground swords I've seen, where it seems to be more a matter of utilizing/showing off a particular technology for surface finishing than to be of always practical concern. For instance, the hollowed back on Japanese knives is often cited as to ease sharpening (less surface to grind away each time), but quite often every surface of these knives have the same hollow grind; it is simply the tool/method used to finish surfaces. In such instance, in fact, the hollow grind somewhat counteracts any sturdiness from obtuseness in the edge angle. So having explained (?) all that, what I wonder is, is the shandigan feature more a grooving of wedge section blade, or is it more like a reinforced edge on a wedge section blade, or is it consistant? You don't need an angle guage; much can be determined with a straight edge. Lay the straight edge across the edge bevel: Whether it is hollowed, flat, or humped will be instantly obvious if it was obscure before. Now, with the straight edge "indexed" to (ie laid flat on) the edge bevel, extend it out to the spine of the blade. Does it cross and touch the spine, indicating the same edge angle as a wedge section blade? Or is it considerably off the spine, indicating an angle that is more obtuse than a full width wedge? Or does it hit the spine where the spine rises, indicating a finer edge than a wedge section blade? This is a simple and useful technique. Rick could've used it (with two straight edges; I often use pencils; it ain't rocket science), BTW, to tell if the cutting area on his kirach is truly flat or slightly wedged; no caliper neccessary (forgive me for not explaining it at the time.....). Try it with sabres; it's fun and interesting. So, what I wonder, and I imagine others might find it interesting, is: Is the shandigan property essentially a reinforced edge, a hollowed flat, a simple expression/result of cross-blade grinding, is it even consistant, or what?..............if we laid cross sections of shandigan and nonshandigan barongs over each other, what would be the comparison?......

3rd June 2005, 05:21 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle? federico, your theory is plausible. not that it matters much, but i'm hoping it is a 19thc. piece. why? i don't know. i just like the way it sounds, lol. "19th c. shandigan Barung". i believe ian brought this up a few months ago, about shandigans flourishing post 1900's. as for a pre span-am war era, would the infamous god of war barung from the Mets qualify as one? now, if that's a pre-1900, why isn't the shandigan type more prevalent? is it reserved for a certain class? since the blade is in the sheath when not in use, i guess we can disregard the reason that it was made for looks, right?

3rd June 2005, 07:35 PM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Spunjer Now that you say it, 19th Century Shandigan Barong does roll off the lips very nicely. Anyways, no real insights into the matter, just thinking out loud. Its just a high rate of incidence in newer style pieces, whereas there are so few old style ones. Then throw in the difficulty in dating old ones without provenance (if we believe Cato the old style continued well up into the 30s), then its difficult to say oh thats definitely a 19th century piece vs something made in say 1912. I like Cecil's notion, that the were made this way to reduce weight. The vast majority of this style I have encountered (including my own) have been no-frills fighting pieces, and who would be more concerned with wieght and balance than someone with a no-frills fighting blade. Mine at least is definitely one of my lighter and more graceful barongs, despite it being the longest one I have. Makes great sense particularly as newer blades got longer, the extra length would thus add weight, and that could definitely effect fighting balance. I know if someone told me I could have the extra length but the same weight as a smaller piece, I would definitely jump at the chance. Oh well just more rambling thoughts.

4th June 2005, 03:00 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Interesting; I just got a Batangas(?) sword whose ferule end and tang tip have been poured in with lead. This is often seen on underclass/Indian N American stuff? I have an idea that hollow ground flats are something that kind of swept through oceanic E Asia at some time (early 20th....?.....), perhaps viewed as a mark of modernity/Europeanism? Perhaps related to the hollowed-flat kukuri? I've seen it on old Moro swords, Japanese swords, Indonesian swords, and on many newer PI swords that seem to be made on Luzon/Batangas. I have not owned a shandigan barong. Is it as if a regular barong had been made a wide shallow groove into, or as if a regular barong had an added ridge of metal at the top of a secondary bevel? Seem a fine distinction? It is, and may not be consistant among examples; to some extent a matter of philosophy/viewpoint, but the crux of the biscuit is: Is the angle of the edge bevel more acute, more obtuse, or the same on shandigan and flat barongs? Is the edge bevel also hollow ground?

4th June 2005, 03:56 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	This little fella pictured above your post Tom is most definitely not hollow ground . More like an apple seed in cross section . BTW , when looking at the spine of the blade there are three distinct layers that I can see .

4th June 2005, 10:47 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	On my datu piece the hilt is also filled with lead.

4th June 2005, 12:23 PM	#8
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	battara, you reckon the lead is there for balance? but if it's a datu piece, it's not primarily meant for daily use so what's the purpose? maybe, nothing more than a panday's choice? rick, it looks as if yours would be the barung of choice by juramentados, due to its size. been looking for the small ones myself...

4th June 2005, 02:16 PM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick, curiuoser and curiouser; three layers to the spine you say? And from the flat it appears to be an applied spine...........?.......... I'll give another crack to what I was trying to ask though, as I've recieved no input. On shandigan barongs is the edge bevel also hollow ground, flat, or humped? If it is hollow ground, this puts them in a category with other E Asian hollow ground swords I've seen, where it seems to be more a matter of utilizing/showing off a particular technology for surface finishing than to be of always practical concern. For instance, the hollowed back on Japanese knives is often cited as to ease sharpening (less surface to grind away each time), but quite often every surface of these knives have the same hollow grind; it is simply the tool/method used to finish surfaces. In such instance, in fact, the hollow grind somewhat counteracts any sturdiness from obtuseness in the edge angle. So having explained (?) all that, what I wonder is, is the shandigan feature more a grooving of wedge section blade, or is it more like a reinforced edge on a wedge section blade, or is it consistant? You don't need an angle guage; much can be determined with a straight edge. Lay the straight edge across the edge bevel: Whether it is hollowed, flat, or humped will be instantly obvious if it was obscure before. Now, with the straight edge "indexed" to (ie laid flat on) the edge bevel, extend it out to the spine of the blade. Does it cross and touch the spine, indicating the same edge angle as a wedge section blade? Or is it considerably off the spine, indicating an angle that is more obtuse than a full width wedge? Or does it hit the spine where the spine rises, indicating a finer edge than a wedge section blade? This is a simple and useful technique. Rick could've used it (with two straight edges; I often use pencils; it ain't rocket science), BTW, to tell if the cutting area on his kirach is truly flat or slightly wedged; no caliper neccessary (forgive me for not explaining it at the time.....). Try it with sabres; it's fun and interesting. So, what I wonder, and I imagine others might find it interesting, is: Is the shandigan property essentially a reinforced edge, a hollowed flat, a simple expression/result of cross-blade grinding, is it even consistant, or what?..............if we laid cross sections of shandigan and nonshandigan barongs over each other, what would be the comparison?......