JAPANESE WAR FANS

[Jason Anstey]

here is a picture of my edo period tessen that I purchased in Japan around 5 or 6 years ago



It is heavy iron with gold leaf urushi lacquered paper fan. Sparrows form the pattern and are done in red ink.

[David]

Very interesting thread.
Barry, all you have to do to create a link it to copy the url of the website (the actual address) and paste it to this page.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8rgix2ZZ2c

[Jason Anstey]

Choson Ninjutsu is seen as fake in Japanese Budo circles. From what I understand the style never existed and certainly is not practised in Japan - So I would take that clip with a grain of salt.

Here is a demo showing real budo - it features Jutte with Tessen as practised in Shindo Muso Ryu( Ikkaku Ryu) a style some 400 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu38C...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeaU91MtV8

edit - I have added a different clip to begin with which shows the tessen better, same ryuha (school/style)

[David]

Originally Posted by Jason Anstey

Choson Ninjutsu is seen as fake in Japanese Budo circles. From what I understand the style never existed and certainly is not practised in Japan - So I would take that clip with a grain of salt.

Here is a demo showing real budo - it features Jutte with Tessen as practised in Shindo Muso Ryu( Ikkaku Ryu) a style some 400 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu38C...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeaU91MtV8

edit - I have added a different clip to begin with which shows the tessen better, same ryuha (school/style)

Well Jason, that well may be, but i must say that the demonstrations in the videos you posted look almost comically ineffectual while the methods in the Choson video look at least practical and well executed. Says little about the historical reality of course, but i think i'd rather be holding the grain of salt in this respect.

[Jason Anstey]

Originally Posted by David

Well Jason, that well may be, but i must say that the demonstrations in the videos you posted look almost comically ineffectual while the methods in the Choson video look at least practical and well executed. Says little about the historical reality of course, but i think i'd rather be holding the grain of salt in this respect.

Well David - with respect I can only assume you don't study Japanese martial arts - but you feel you can say a 400 year old school with unbroken linage is ineffectual then you must know more than many do?

Chosun is a modern invented school - maybe it is effective I don't know, but when you invent a martial art based on a now defunct weapon and call if effective then you are missing the point of budo

I recommend doing a search on Chosun to find out more - maybe try ebudo or bullshido for starts.

Me, well, yes I am a student of legitimate budo and have trained in Japan on numerous occasions - maybe I am bias. I had hoped to show you a demonstration with undisputed experts in the field to show true tessen jutsu and I am sorry that you didn't see or appreciate this. I get annoyed at seeing rubbish touted as legitimate. What I will say with certainty is that the clips I have shown are correct - you may not understand it like you do the Chosun clip but I think you should make critical judgement on something you have experience with.

I thought the the OP thread is a great one with some really good info and pics. I know the Chosun clip is newly invented rubbish - so I only wanted for you to see real history - isn't this what this site is about - real history in regards to weapons?

[asomotif]

Hello Jason,

To be frank,I have no knowledge on martial arts except for 10 lessons in Kendo I once followed.
I have no doubt that the video's you show us are ancient techniques.

But personally I also feel it hard to imagine that a serious stroke with a katana can be effectively stopped by a metal rod of approx 30 cms, without hand guard.
That is probably also David's point of view on this.

Also the technique where the katana is fixed by the fan and the tanto looks rather scary to me.
The katana is only 40 or 50 cms away from the defenders private parts.
If the attacker would step foreward I can imagine that he would cause some serious damage while still keeping out of reach of the fan and tanto

But then again, I can easily be wrong as I do like collecting edged weapons, but normally stay very very far from using them.

[Jason Anstey]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hello Jason,

To be frank,I have no knowledge on martial arts except for 10 lessons in Kendo I once followed.
I have no doubt that the video's you show us are ancient techniques.

But personally I also feel it hard to imagine that a serious stroke with a katana can be effectively stopped by a metal rod of approx 30 cms, without hand guard.
That is probably also David's point of view on this.

Also the technique where the katana is fixed by the fan and the tanto looks rather scary to me.
The katana is only 40 or 50 cms away from the defenders private parts.
If the attacker would step foreward I can imagine that he would cause some serious damage while still keeping out of reach of the fan and tanto

But then again, I can easily be wrong as I do like collecting edged weapons, but normally stay very very far from using them.

No problems. The thing to understand from the clips posted is that these are "embu" ie demonstrations of the art. THey are showing kata. THe kata consists of various principles and techniques. THe vids are not demonstration 'how to do this if someone does this' Normally demonstrations of this nature are for dojo only.

I understand that this site(which I am a big fan of for its knowledge and absence of wannabe ninjas) is for ethnographic weapon discussions. If I posted a picture of a weapon like the attached image and said this was based on reality - I would get smashed down - and rightly so.

Now, I have seen this thread - and I thank the OP for this, that I have a great deal of interest in both martial and collecting and I merely sought to show examples of accepted good form.

Hiroi Sensei who David mentioned as "comical" is actually one of the most respected martial artist in all of Japan regardless of school, he was a legend. So I though people would appreciate seeing something different without the Youtube martial arts $$ signs.

What I would like is for people to watch the embu again and see the angles shown in the slo-mo of the jutte and tessen in regards to the sword - one blocks and the other deflects the follow through of blade so the blocking hand is not cut off.

THese weapons were used primarily by the edo period police who did not wear swords (generalisation for the purpose of a short discussion)

Anyway it is a discussion that could go on way too long - and I apologise if I have ruffled feathers - my intention was to add to the OP not to take away the value of Vandoos post.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jason Anstey

Well David - with respect I can only assume you don't study Japanese martial arts - but you feel you can say a 400 year old school with unbroken linage is ineffectual then you must know more than many do?

Chosun is a modern invented school - maybe it is effective I don't know, but when you invent a martial art based on a now defunct weapon and call if effective then you are missing the point of budo

I recommend doing a search on Chosun to find out more - maybe try ebudo or bullshido for starts.

Me, well, yes I am a student of legitimate budo and have trained in Japan on numerous occasions - maybe I am bias. I had hoped to show you a demonstration with undisputed experts in the field to show true tessen jutsu and I am sorry that you didn't see or appreciate this. I get annoyed at seeing rubbish touted as legitimate. What I will say with certainty is that the clips I have shown are correct - you may not understand it like you do the Chosun clip but I think you should make critical judgement on something you have experience with.

I thought the the OP thread is a great one with some really good info and pics. I know the Chosun clip is newly invented rubbish - so I only wanted for you to see real history - isn't this what this site is about - real history in regards to weapons?

Jason, i suppose i understand your defensive stance, but if you really read what i stated you would have noticed that i clearly made the remark that it "Says little about the historical reality of course..."
Also i did not refer to Hiroi Sensei as "comical", i said the the demonstration appeared "comical ineffectual", and i will stick by that comment as i think it does. I am afraid that as a demo video it was shot far too far away to show the viewer any nuances of the moves, but even so i still doubt that the fan holder here would stand much of a chance against an experienced swordsman with these moves.
I do understand and appreciate your pointing out that the first group of images are from a newly developed art. This is important to note in an ethnographic discussion, but again bares no relevance on the effectiveness of the art itself. In a real fight the age of your "tradition" is reletively unimportant.
You certainly haven't ruffled my feathers Jason. I hope i haven't ruffled yours.