Masai Spear for comment and a few questions

Tim Simmons · 5th May 2010, 05:48 PM

David what makes you say that spears are untempered?

katana · 5th May 2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

David what makes you say that spears are untempered?

Hi Tim,
a number of references mentioned that the blades were untempered...however, I have just checked this one ....and its tempered

I believe mine is an example of the Bantu blacksmiths craft. Perhaps those produced by the Masai were untempered. I will try and 're-discover' the references I mentioned earlier. Are all yours tempered?

Best Regards David

kronckew · 5th May 2010, 09:00 PM

i've seen an old b&w video of an old masai lion hunt in which a spearman missed the lion & the spear bent dramatically. he retrieved it, straightened it and carried on. maybe a hardened and tempered spear like that could break rather than bend and a broken spear is useless.

also there is the old roman pilum reasoning, if used in warfare throwing a spear into an opponents shield where it would bend and encumber the enemy to force him to abandon the shield, or if missed would bend and render it incapable of being thrown back at it's owner until it hand been straightened, made sense.

Tim Simmons · 6th May 2010, 10:05 AM

All the steel spears I have are tempered. Some seem more so than others, like many swords. Even a smaller South African {Zulu type} spear I have the steel has been folded in the forge and has a good temper. I imaging the tempering of a long old Massai spear is more difficult and so results may well vary. I am sure we have all come across bent swords.

kronckew · 6th May 2010, 12:29 PM

just as a reminder of terminology:

When a metal is worked such as bending forming welding etc it hardens due to the process which is not desirable. To return the metal to its original state the metal is annealed usually by heating and slow cooling.

Tempering is a process that follows hardening Take a knife formed from a common high carbon steel and then heated to cherry red hot around 900 deg C and quenched in oil or water this makes the knife very hard but brittle

Annealing is softening the metal after work hardening
Tempering is reducing brittleness after quench hardening

Tempering is raising the knife temperature to around 250 deg C and again quenching in oil or water this reduces the brittleness but retains most of the hardness

the exact temperatures/quenching material, etc. depend on the composition of the steel involved.

differential hardening, as used on a khukuri for instance, has the steel heated to hardening temp, and just the edge is quenched, with the spine generally left to air cool and thus become tempered by the residual heat in the item. nepali kami's do that quench with just a teapot & boiling water by the way.

the whole process is better referred to as 'heat treatment' rather than as just 'tempering' which is a part of it rather than a stand-alone process.

katana · 9th May 2010, 03:20 PM

I've been thinking about the possibility that perhaps the 'tip' area may be tempered in the quench.....and the lower section left to perhaps air cool....or quenched, after the metal was cooler. This, I believe, would allow the tip to keep a sharper edge....but allow the lower section to bend to help prevent fracture ?? ...absorbing any unusual side-ways stresses.

Regards David

5th May 2010, 05:48 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	David what makes you say that spears are untempered?

5th May 2010, 09:00 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i've seen an old b&w video of an old masai lion hunt in which a spearman missed the lion & the spear bent dramatically. he retrieved it, straightened it and carried on. maybe a hardened and tempered spear like that could break rather than bend and a broken spear is useless. also there is the old roman pilum reasoning, if used in warfare throwing a spear into an opponents shield where it would bend and encumber the enemy to force him to abandon the shield, or if missed would bend and render it incapable of being thrown back at it's owner until it hand been straightened, made sense.

6th May 2010, 10:05 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	All the steel spears I have are tempered. Some seem more so than others, like many swords. Even a smaller South African {Zulu type} spear I have the steel has been folded in the forge and has a good temper. I imaging the tempering of a long old Massai spear is more difficult and so results may well vary. I am sure we have all come across bent swords.

6th May 2010, 12:29 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	just as a reminder of terminology: When a metal is worked such as bending forming welding etc it hardens due to the process which is not desirable. To return the metal to its original state the metal is annealed usually by heating and slow cooling. Tempering is a process that follows hardening Take a knife formed from a common high carbon steel and then heated to cherry red hot around 900 deg C and quenched in oil or water this makes the knife very hard but brittle Annealing is softening the metal after work hardening Tempering is reducing brittleness after quench hardening Tempering is raising the knife temperature to around 250 deg C and again quenching in oil or water this reduces the brittleness but retains most of the hardness the exact temperatures/quenching material, etc. depend on the composition of the steel involved. differential hardening, as used on a khukuri for instance, has the steel heated to hardening temp, and just the edge is quenched, with the spine generally left to air cool and thus become tempered by the residual heat in the item. nepali kami's do that quench with just a teapot & boiling water by the way. the whole process is better referred to as 'heat treatment' rather than as just 'tempering' which is a part of it rather than a stand-alone process.

9th May 2010, 03:20 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I've been thinking about the possibility that perhaps the 'tip' area may be tempered in the quench.....and the lower section left to perhaps air cool....or quenched, after the metal was cooler. This, I believe, would allow the tip to keep a sharper edge....but allow the lower section to bend to help prevent fracture ?? ...absorbing any unusual side-ways stresses. Regards David