Oddly constructed cutlass

M ELEY · 5th May 2010, 06:56 AM

Thanks for all your suggestions, gents. I don't know if I'm up to wacking it against a tree just yet!

I will try to get that product Atlantia mentioned and perhaps I'll use a drummel tool to scrape away the brass. I'll write back if I find out any more. Thanks again...

M ELEY · 11th May 2010, 01:12 PM

Finally removed the stain from the brass at the throat of the blade...and brass it is. A magnet didn't stick to it and it has an older yellowed patina to it. I'm still convinced on holding this one that it is legit. Worked on and repaired, yes, but a modern forgery with slapped-on blade, I don't believe so. IF it is real (

), when would someone have had the technology to simply forge the knuckle guard to the grip without a peined tang? Wouldn't this still be an easy process that could have been done pretty early?

Jim McDougall · 11th May 2010, 05:55 PM

While the examination of construction on this piece truly is interesting, as well as the husbandry observations and tips, what interests me most is trying to figure out more on identifying it.

William Gilkerson ("Boarders Away", R.I. 1991, p. 84) notes, "...there are extant numbers of unmarked M1804 cutlass derivatives awaiting identification by some future scholar, and also various hilt and blades anomalies.

I think that Mark, in his tenacity in pursuing all things maritime, is probably just that figure, as he always finds unusual and often surprisingly linked items that cause us to rethink the set boundaries of the weapons and materials used in this sector of collecting.

The period of the famed M1804 'double disc' hilt cutlasses does seem to have had 'wide berth' as there were many of the familiar names producing them, as well as numbers of lesser known and even entirely unmarked productions.
Obviously during the Napoleonic Wars, there was considerable emphasis on naval power, and Gilkerson notes "...a flurry of activity in cutlass matters" just before the end of these conflicts c.1814 (op.cit. p.85). While there is mention of a defined type by Tatham & Egg, it seems plausible that this 'flurry' may have produced a number of other contenders.

This unusual sheet steel guard is unique in the diamond shaped cutout pierced in the steel, clearly deviating from the double discs. It is worthy of note to refer to the presence of the diamond shape in the vertical pierced guard in the brass hilted, ebony grip sabre Mark also has....obviously in reference this is free association, but tempting to do so. Clearly there is not a naval symbolism here that I have heard of, but perhaps a period geometric fashion of the time.

More unusual is the curiously upturned point blade, a characteristic indeed seen on espada ancha blades of about this period, and not suggesting this may be Spanish, but again, worthy of note.

The ribbed grip seems more in line with the more cylindrical type used later in the M1841 style British cutlasses. After 1815, the British navy was basically somewhat in decline, with ships decommisioned and no more cutlasses were sought. In this time, it stands to reason that the focus on war would have shifted dramatically to trade, and militarily unmarked private purchase cutlasses would still have been sought by merchant shipping.

One potentially likely suggestion that seems likely to be advanced might be the mysterious 'lead cutter' swords, and I would like to address that here as well. In Gilkerson (p.85) he mentions these and thier 'heavy blades', and suggests M1804 disc type guards, citing Flayderman and Annis claiming being puzzled by thier purpose.
First, these are well described in Robson ("Swords of the British Army", London, 1975, pp.176-177, fig. 185) and these are believed to have been for some type of cutting exercise to strengthen wrists perhaps. They were not officially introduced until an order in 1870 (1 Sept. 1870), which appeared along with the method prescribed for casting lead moulds. These had nothing to do with M1804 hilts, nor the confusion which seems to have come into play with cutlasses at times. These are clearly marked 'lead cutter' and are typically included with gymnasia or practice swords.

This then may be excluded with any prospective suggestions of lead cutting swords; may well be one of the hilt and blade anomalies suggested by Gilkerson, or among the 'flurry' of cutlass activity c.1814. It does seem to be a cutlass which shows evidence of the innovative activity of these times toward improving edged weapons, and could be either a prototype, or of a small private contract which may have ended up in merchant use.

All best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th May 2010, 03:23 AM

Thanks, Jim, for commenting on this perplexing sword. Most of the time, I can tell when I'm holding out for a positive answer on an item I "want" to be something vs one I truly feel "is" something. The whole feel of this sword, despite its awkward construction, tells me its real. You bring up the point again that this area, like Confederate weapons, espada ancha, Rev War swords, etc, gets alot into the gray zones sometimes. Many naval swords made for merchant ships and privateers were indeed limited productions, with a cutler, smith or sword maker producing limited numbers for a said ship. Likewise, just like the private purchase pikes and axes, they were often made cheap and treated badly. In retrospect, I belive Kronckew is right that the brass is a field repair, but I think one that is contemporary with the whole piece. Likewise, I still think the odd blade went with the hilt, rather similar to many of the blades on Rev War cutlass in Neumann's. Even Gilkerson mentions many thousands of different naval patterns designed by multiple makers between the times of 1801-15 whose records are lost. We just don't know what they even look like.
I had often thought this might have been patterned after the later Brit model m1845, so your mention of the similarities rings true. I agree that it might be of this later period possibly. This is a little later than my favorite area of collecting (Age of Fighting Sail), but still an interesting naval piece. I had always wondered about the lead-cutters and whether they were for cutlass drill or just exercise. Thanks all for responding on this anomaly.

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2010, 12:28 PM

Hi Mark,
I remember that exact feeling well, and my early passions for collecting edged weapons were driven by boundless optimism in hoping to connect my finds to famous periods, events and exciting literature. Actually, in some senses I miss that, but eventually found that there was far more adventure in finding true perspective, and that there was much deeper history yet to be discovered.

The 'gray zones' you have noted with the Civil War weapons and Revolutionary War weapons among collectors are typically the result of either extremely creative opportunists, whether crafty dealers or ambitious private sellers, and above all, the lack of thorough understanding in the nuances in these weapons. Efforts to advance knowledge and add to the standing resources available should add to the ever growing knowledge that will hopefully preserve the history associated with these weapons. It turn this will enable future scholars and collectors to navigate through the ever present sea of chaff that plagues these fields of study.

I think the most important thing to remember in examining weapons of these periods is that they were intended for use in life or death situations rather than to present a certain appearance. If the style or construction was not likely to withstand combat, it may be presumed that the weapon may not hold the degree of integrity hoped for. Also, as eventually the dependance on firearms or variance in strategy rendered use of certain weapons into lesser inevitable position, that degree might also be considered in evaluation.

One of the most intriguing things I see in this cutlass is the extremely unusual upturned point on the blade. I have seen something similar in an illustration of a nimcha if I recall correctly, and it was a line drawing in a French article on weapons fabrication....time for another excavation here in the bookmobile !

I am wondering if, in these times of considerable experimentation in edged weapon technology as noted, that perhaps exposure in the Meditteranean to the dreaded, and much romanticized 'Barbary Pirates' might have lent to consideration of this somewhat radically designed blade.

As always, a fascinating weapon Mark, and more high seas adventure. The age of fighting sail may have ended in certain degree, but high seas adventure still lives.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 13th May 2010, 07:25 AM

Yes, Jim, you do have a point that the structure of the weapon has to be practical to be the real thing. The blade on this one is unusual, but I still think it was a functional one. It carries quite a bit of weight and the blade is sharpened toward the point and more blunt near the hilt. The curve on this cutlass is extreme, but not much different than that found on the m1812. You mention the influence of the Barbary Corsairs on swords- excellent point! I could see this as one following this trend. Officer's swords of this period were indeed affected, with curving blades and mameluke hilts.

Jim McDougall · 16th May 2010, 11:21 PM

Hi Mark,
Excavation success!!! I found the article, an obscure reference from a French magazine in 1976 concerning blade types and sections......it is obviously a 'nimcha', well known in French context of course with thier colonial activity in these regions.
This curious 'uptick' on blades seems to be a subtle characteristic on the colonial blades of espada anchas of the early 19th century, and it is worthy of note that there seems to have been considerable association between some Spanish colonial swords and examples of colonial Maghreb weapons.

All the best,
Jim

16th May 2010, 11:21 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Mark, Excavation success!!! I found the article, an obscure reference from a French magazine in 1976 concerning blade types and sections......it is obviously a 'nimcha', well known in French context of course with thier colonial activity in these regions. This curious 'uptick' on blades seems to be a subtle characteristic on the colonial blades of espada anchas of the early 19th century, and it is worthy of note that there seems to have been considerable association between some Spanish colonial swords and examples of colonial Maghreb weapons. All the best, Jim Attached Images

5th May 2010, 06:56 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks for all your suggestions, gents. I don't know if I'm up to wacking it against a tree just yet! I will try to get that product Atlantia mentioned and perhaps I'll use a drummel tool to scrape away the brass. I'll write back if I find out any more. Thanks again...

11th May 2010, 01:12 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Finally removed the stain from the brass at the throat of the blade...and brass it is. A magnet didn't stick to it and it has an older yellowed patina to it. I'm still convinced on holding this one that it is legit. Worked on and repaired, yes, but a modern forgery with slapped-on blade, I don't believe so. IF it is real ( ), when would someone have had the technology to simply forge the knuckle guard to the grip without a peined tang? Wouldn't this still be an easy process that could have been done pretty early?

11th May 2010, 05:55 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	While the examination of construction on this piece truly is interesting, as well as the husbandry observations and tips, what interests me most is trying to figure out more on identifying it. William Gilkerson ("Boarders Away", R.I. 1991, p. 84) notes, "...there are extant numbers of unmarked M1804 cutlass derivatives awaiting identification by some future scholar, and also various hilt and blades anomalies. I think that Mark, in his tenacity in pursuing all things maritime, is probably just that figure, as he always finds unusual and often surprisingly linked items that cause us to rethink the set boundaries of the weapons and materials used in this sector of collecting. The period of the famed M1804 'double disc' hilt cutlasses does seem to have had 'wide berth' as there were many of the familiar names producing them, as well as numbers of lesser known and even entirely unmarked productions. Obviously during the Napoleonic Wars, there was considerable emphasis on naval power, and Gilkerson notes "...a flurry of activity in cutlass matters" just before the end of these conflicts c.1814 (op.cit. p.85). While there is mention of a defined type by Tatham & Egg, it seems plausible that this 'flurry' may have produced a number of other contenders. This unusual sheet steel guard is unique in the diamond shaped cutout pierced in the steel, clearly deviating from the double discs. It is worthy of note to refer to the presence of the diamond shape in the vertical pierced guard in the brass hilted, ebony grip sabre Mark also has....obviously in reference this is free association, but tempting to do so. Clearly there is not a naval symbolism here that I have heard of, but perhaps a period geometric fashion of the time. More unusual is the curiously upturned point blade, a characteristic indeed seen on espada ancha blades of about this period, and not suggesting this may be Spanish, but again, worthy of note. The ribbed grip seems more in line with the more cylindrical type used later in the M1841 style British cutlasses. After 1815, the British navy was basically somewhat in decline, with ships decommisioned and no more cutlasses were sought. In this time, it stands to reason that the focus on war would have shifted dramatically to trade, and militarily unmarked private purchase cutlasses would still have been sought by merchant shipping. One potentially likely suggestion that seems likely to be advanced might be the mysterious 'lead cutter' swords, and I would like to address that here as well. In Gilkerson (p.85) he mentions these and thier 'heavy blades', and suggests M1804 disc type guards, citing Flayderman and Annis claiming being puzzled by thier purpose. First, these are well described in Robson ("Swords of the British Army", London, 1975, pp.176-177, fig. 185) and these are believed to have been for some type of cutting exercise to strengthen wrists perhaps. They were not officially introduced until an order in 1870 (1 Sept. 1870), which appeared along with the method prescribed for casting lead moulds. These had nothing to do with M1804 hilts, nor the confusion which seems to have come into play with cutlasses at times. These are clearly marked 'lead cutter' and are typically included with gymnasia or practice swords. This then may be excluded with any prospective suggestions of lead cutting swords; may well be one of the hilt and blade anomalies suggested by Gilkerson, or among the 'flurry' of cutlass activity c.1814. It does seem to be a cutlass which shows evidence of the innovative activity of these times toward improving edged weapons, and could be either a prototype, or of a small private contract which may have ended up in merchant use. All best regards, Jim

12th May 2010, 03:23 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks, Jim, for commenting on this perplexing sword. Most of the time, I can tell when I'm holding out for a positive answer on an item I "want" to be something vs one I truly feel "is" something. The whole feel of this sword, despite its awkward construction, tells me its real. You bring up the point again that this area, like Confederate weapons, espada ancha, Rev War swords, etc, gets alot into the gray zones sometimes. Many naval swords made for merchant ships and privateers were indeed limited productions, with a cutler, smith or sword maker producing limited numbers for a said ship. Likewise, just like the private purchase pikes and axes, they were often made cheap and treated badly. In retrospect, I belive Kronckew is right that the brass is a field repair, but I think one that is contemporary with the whole piece. Likewise, I still think the odd blade went with the hilt, rather similar to many of the blades on Rev War cutlass in Neumann's. Even Gilkerson mentions many thousands of different naval patterns designed by multiple makers between the times of 1801-15 whose records are lost. We just don't know what they even look like. I had often thought this might have been patterned after the later Brit model m1845, so your mention of the similarities rings true. I agree that it might be of this later period possibly. This is a little later than my favorite area of collecting (Age of Fighting Sail), but still an interesting naval piece. I had always wondered about the lead-cutters and whether they were for cutlass drill or just exercise. Thanks all for responding on this anomaly.

12th May 2010, 12:28 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Mark, I remember that exact feeling well, and my early passions for collecting edged weapons were driven by boundless optimism in hoping to connect my finds to famous periods, events and exciting literature. Actually, in some senses I miss that, but eventually found that there was far more adventure in finding true perspective, and that there was much deeper history yet to be discovered. The 'gray zones' you have noted with the Civil War weapons and Revolutionary War weapons among collectors are typically the result of either extremely creative opportunists, whether crafty dealers or ambitious private sellers, and above all, the lack of thorough understanding in the nuances in these weapons. Efforts to advance knowledge and add to the standing resources available should add to the ever growing knowledge that will hopefully preserve the history associated with these weapons. It turn this will enable future scholars and collectors to navigate through the ever present sea of chaff that plagues these fields of study. I think the most important thing to remember in examining weapons of these periods is that they were intended for use in life or death situations rather than to present a certain appearance. If the style or construction was not likely to withstand combat, it may be presumed that the weapon may not hold the degree of integrity hoped for. Also, as eventually the dependance on firearms or variance in strategy rendered use of certain weapons into lesser inevitable position, that degree might also be considered in evaluation. One of the most intriguing things I see in this cutlass is the extremely unusual upturned point on the blade. I have seen something similar in an illustration of a nimcha if I recall correctly, and it was a line drawing in a French article on weapons fabrication....time for another excavation here in the bookmobile ! I am wondering if, in these times of considerable experimentation in edged weapon technology as noted, that perhaps exposure in the Meditteranean to the dreaded, and much romanticized 'Barbary Pirates' might have lent to consideration of this somewhat radically designed blade. As always, a fascinating weapon Mark, and more high seas adventure. The age of fighting sail may have ended in certain degree, but high seas adventure still lives. All the best, Jim

13th May 2010, 07:25 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes, Jim, you do have a point that the structure of the weapon has to be practical to be the real thing. The blade on this one is unusual, but I still think it was a functional one. It carries quite a bit of weight and the blade is sharpened toward the point and more blunt near the hilt. The curve on this cutlass is extreme, but not much different than that found on the m1812. You mention the influence of the Barbary Corsairs on swords- excellent point! I could see this as one following this trend. Officer's swords of this period were indeed affected, with curving blades and mameluke hilts.