searching for the right dapur??

David · 3rd May 2010, 02:06 PM

I have to agree with Alan for the most part hear. Knowing the names of dhapurs and pamor patterns isn't so much knowledge as it is recitation. What i am personally more curious about are the "whys" and the "hows". With so many pamors and dhapurs, why THIS one or THAT one? These cultural choices have deeper meanings that i rarely hear people discussing. How does one relate to their keris as a cultural/spiritual symbol? What are the practices involved? How is this different today than it was in the 19th century or in the 14th century. How different is the Hindu approach to the keris than the Islamic approach? Of course some of these questions may be more difficult or even impossible to answer, but they are far more interesting to me than what current day collecters call the pamor or dhapur of any given keris.

Sajen · 3rd May 2010, 02:53 PM

I think that this is a typical "collector"-problem that in this forum so many questions about dhapur and pamor. Collectors try to collect the rare dhapurs and pamors and "hunting" for this (and I am not a exception). A second point, like Alan approach already, a lot of the members are not familar with the javanese culture, or better not so deep involved like Alan or the indonesian members. But I am every time happy when here are discussions from this "inner circle" and read this with great avidity. And I think that I am not the only one.

Detlef

sirek · 3rd May 2010, 05:56 PM

A big difference of course is: growing up in a culture where the dagger is a part of cultural heritage, or someone who is interested and becomes a keris-collector on the other side of the world.

And in my opinion the language is the biggest problem, when I look for information, I first look in books written in my own language.

Like my believe that this is pamor Tejo-Kinurung.
I've looked in the book "The kris part 2” of Tammens page:138-139
( I know that these books are not always give the right information)

But this is what Tammens wrote:

Tejo Kinurung: “Three times lightning”
Not a general pamor motif, but certainly quite impressive.
At first glance it resembles a kekumus in a wengkon, but this is not
correct. The empu deliberately placed both outer lines more towards
the middle, so it cannot possibly be classified as wengkon.

So that was my guide to come to the conclusion that it was:
pamor Tejo-Kinurung. And therefore a comment given by someone with a different perspective on things is so appreciated. (not only by me!)

So thank you all for doing this..

and I'm now convinced that it is indeed pamor: Adeg-Tiga

A. G. Maisey · 3rd May 2010, 11:17 PM

Don't be too convinced Sirek.

Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga.

But adeg tiga is Indonesian.

adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese.

So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it?

What is it called in Central Jawa as opposed to Jakarta as opposed to East Jawa as opposed to the North Coast?

What if somebody decides that it does not quite conform exactly to adeg tiga parameters in some way and wants to call it something else entirely?

One of the great products of this classification business associated with keris is that it is a wonderful generator of conversation and discussion. Effectively you can discuss all day and be no more knowledgeable at the the time you go to bed than you were when you woke up, but you have managed to fill the day with talk.

I've just about reached the point where I'm prepared to accept any name or any classification, provided that the reference is given. What I mean by this is that I look askance at an opinion that is not backed up by reference to some generally accepted source.

So, we have the situation here where Pak Ganja and I agree, but if Pak Ganja said it was adeg tiga, and I called it some name that he had never heard of, he would be quite justified in asking what my reference was.

If I said that I'd learnt this name from a book on cake decorating that my wife had, well, that would say it all, wouldn't it?

But what if I said, well, that's what we call it in my village.

Then Pak Ganja would store this other name away as an alternative used in one place.

However, when it comes down to appraisal as an art work, only one name should be applied, and that is the name used under the aegis of a karaton.

Sajen · 3rd May 2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Don't be too convinced Sirek.

Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga.

But adeg tiga is Indonesian.

adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese.

So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it?

What is it called in Central Jawa as opposed to Jakarta as opposed to East Jawa as opposed to the North Coast?

What if somebody decides that it does not quite conform exactly to adeg tiga parameters in some way and wants to call it something else entirely?

One of the great products of this classification business associated with keris is that it is a wonderful generator of conversation and discussion. Effectively you can discuss all day and be no more knowledgeable at the the time you go to bed than you were when you woke up, but you have managed to fill the day with talk.

I've just about reached the point where I'm prepared to accept any name or any classification, provided that the reference is given. What I mean by this is that I look askance at an opinion that is not backed up by reference to some generally accepted source.

So, we have the situation here where Pak Ganja and I agree, but if Pak Ganja said it was adeg tiga, and I called it some name that he had never heard of, he would be quite justified in asking what my reference was.

If I said that I'd learnt this name from a book on cake decorating that my wife had, well, that would say it all, wouldn't it?

But what if I said, well, that's what we call it in my village.

Then Pak Ganja would store this other name away as an alternative used in one place.

However, when it comes down to appraisal as an art work, only one name should be applied, and that is the name used under the aegis of a karaton.

It's now late in the evening here in Germany and I have had a hard day. By reading your post I have to laugh maybe the first time this day!

Thank you for that Alan,

Detlef

ganjawulung · 4th May 2010, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga.

But adeg tiga is Indonesian.

adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese.

So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it?

Tiga (please spell in English way -- teegaw) in "higher" (kromo) javanese, means "three" too.

So, if we count "one, two, three, four..." in the ordinary or common javanese (ngoko) then it would be "siji, loro, telu, papat..." but in higher javanese (krama), then it should be "setunggal, kalih, tiga (or tigo), sekawan..."

In daily javanese, if we speak to other people in the same rank of society (common people to common people), then it would not be wrong too if we call the same name of pamor as "adeg telu". But if you speak to a higher rank people, you should better say as "adeg tiga/tigo"...

It is the same way if you mention other pamor name, as "beras wutah" (common javanese), then in higher javanese or krama (kromo), you would say the same meaning but in more polite way as "wos wutah". It depends on with whom you speak to. If you speak to common people (common people speaks to common people), it is okay if you say to him or her as pamor "beras wutah". But if you speak to a higher rank people, then it is more polite if you then mention "wos wutah" (more polite way, of mentioning "beras wutah")

The highest rank of javanese, "krama inggil" (if a common people speak to his King, or highest level person), then you may say as "wos wutah" too. It is the most polite way to mention "beras wutah"...

The same way if you say it as "kembang kacang" (common javanese or "ngoko"), then in higher (krama) javanese you may say it as "sekar kacang". Also other name of pamor "sekar pala" (higher javanese), if spelled by common people it would be "kembang pala" ('nutmeg' flower?)

Any way, thanks Alan for responding it. I agree, it will be too complicated to explain this.

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 4th May 2010, 01:14 AM

Thanks for pulling me up Pak Ganja.

Yes, of course you're right.

I ran through the numbers in my mind as I wrote that post, but I was running on full automatic, and I did not convert my "tigo" to modern spelling of tiga --- which of course we say the same way. I hear "tiga", it triggers the Indonesian response. I hear "tigo" it triggers the Javanese response.

We can blame keyboards that don't allow that little dot over the "a".

Same with "kembang pala". I hear this as Indonesian, simply because everybody I know says "kembang polo" , and when my wife cooks, she doesn't use pala in the bistik, she uses polo. But if I go into Akar Sari I ask for "pala panjang". Why? Because the shop assistants expect me to use Indonesian, because I'm a bule. My wife asks for nutmeg she asks for polo, and they expect it.

Yep, no doubt about it:- too complicated altogether. How is it possible to explain all this to people who haven't been up close and personal to Javanese people and language usage?

And this is the simple stuff.

What about when people start playing words games and turning "keris" into "keferis" & etc & etc.

One more reason why I'm prepared to accept just about any description, as long as I understand it.

Moshah · 4th May 2010, 02:26 AM

Sorry for abruptly interrupt your discussions, pak gonjo & pak alan...

I just want to know what is the thing with turtle shell? Is it a common stuff for decoration, like using whale ivory for a hilt, or are there some other meaning to it?

I don't happen to hear this so often, at least not in my country...

David · 4th May 2010, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

I agree, it will be too complicated to explain this.

On the contrary, i believe that you and Alan are explaining it quite well.

3rd May 2010, 02:06 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	I have to agree with Alan for the most part hear. Knowing the names of dhapurs and pamor patterns isn't so much knowledge as it is recitation. What i am personally more curious about are the "whys" and the "hows". With so many pamors and dhapurs, why THIS one or THAT one? These cultural choices have deeper meanings that i rarely hear people discussing. How does one relate to their keris as a cultural/spiritual symbol? What are the practices involved? How is this different today than it was in the 19th century or in the 14th century. How different is the Hindu approach to the keris than the Islamic approach? Of course some of these questions may be more difficult or even impossible to answer, but they are far more interesting to me than what current day collecters call the pamor or dhapur of any given keris.

3rd May 2010, 02:53 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,213	I think that this is a typical "collector"-problem that in this forum so many questions about dhapur and pamor. Collectors try to collect the rare dhapurs and pamors and "hunting" for this (and I am not a exception). A second point, like Alan approach already, a lot of the members are not familar with the javanese culture, or better not so deep involved like Alan or the indonesian members. But I am every time happy when here are discussions from this "inner circle" and read this with great avidity. And I think that I am not the only one. Detlef

3rd May 2010, 05:56 PM	#3
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 170	A big difference of course is: growing up in a culture where the dagger is a part of cultural heritage, or someone who is interested and becomes a keris-collector on the other side of the world. And in my opinion the language is the biggest problem, when I look for information, I first look in books written in my own language. Like my believe that this is pamor Tejo-Kinurung. I've looked in the book "The kris part 2” of Tammens page:138-139 ( I know that these books are not always give the right information) But this is what Tammens wrote: Tejo Kinurung: “Three times lightning” Not a general pamor motif, but certainly quite impressive. At first glance it resembles a kekumus in a wengkon, but this is not correct. The empu deliberately placed both outer lines more towards the middle, so it cannot possibly be classified as wengkon. So that was my guide to come to the conclusion that it was: pamor Tejo-Kinurung. And therefore a comment given by someone with a different perspective on things is so appreciated. (not only by me!) So thank you all for doing this.. and I'm now convinced that it is indeed pamor: Adeg-Tiga

3rd May 2010, 11:17 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Don't be too convinced Sirek. Yes, Pak Ganja calls it adeg tiga, and if I picked it up somewhere and I was talking to somebody about it, I'd call it it adeg tiga. But adeg tiga is Indonesian. adeg means standing (amongst other meanings) in both Javanese and Indonesian, but tiga means three in Indonesian only, not in Javanese. So what does somebody who is Javanese-Javanese call it? What is it called in Central Jawa as opposed to Jakarta as opposed to East Jawa as opposed to the North Coast? What if somebody decides that it does not quite conform exactly to adeg tiga parameters in some way and wants to call it something else entirely? One of the great products of this classification business associated with keris is that it is a wonderful generator of conversation and discussion. Effectively you can discuss all day and be no more knowledgeable at the the time you go to bed than you were when you woke up, but you have managed to fill the day with talk. I've just about reached the point where I'm prepared to accept any name or any classification, provided that the reference is given. What I mean by this is that I look askance at an opinion that is not backed up by reference to some generally accepted source. So, we have the situation here where Pak Ganja and I agree, but if Pak Ganja said it was adeg tiga, and I called it some name that he had never heard of, he would be quite justified in asking what my reference was. If I said that I'd learnt this name from a book on cake decorating that my wife had, well, that would say it all, wouldn't it? But what if I said, well, that's what we call it in my village. Then Pak Ganja would store this other name away as an alternative used in one place. However, when it comes down to appraisal as an art work, only one name should be applied, and that is the name used under the aegis of a karaton.

4th May 2010, 01:14 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks for pulling me up Pak Ganja. Yes, of course you're right. I ran through the numbers in my mind as I wrote that post, but I was running on full automatic, and I did not convert my "tigo" to modern spelling of tiga --- which of course we say the same way. I hear "tiga", it triggers the Indonesian response. I hear "tigo" it triggers the Javanese response. We can blame keyboards that don't allow that little dot over the "a". Same with "kembang pala". I hear this as Indonesian, simply because everybody I know says "kembang polo" , and when my wife cooks, she doesn't use pala in the bistik, she uses polo. But if I go into Akar Sari I ask for "pala panjang". Why? Because the shop assistants expect me to use Indonesian, because I'm a bule. My wife asks for nutmeg she asks for polo, and they expect it. Yep, no doubt about it:- too complicated altogether. How is it possible to explain all this to people who haven't been up close and personal to Javanese people and language usage? And this is the simple stuff. What about when people start playing words games and turning "keris" into "keferis" & etc & etc. One more reason why I'm prepared to accept just about any description, as long as I understand it.

4th May 2010, 02:26 AM	#8
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Sorry for abruptly interrupt your discussions, pak gonjo & pak alan... I just want to know what is the thing with turtle shell? Is it a common stuff for decoration, like using whale ivory for a hilt, or are there some other meaning to it? I don't happen to hear this so often, at least not in my country...