Interesting big sized javanese keris

[A. G. Maisey]

The Jawa wrongko looks like trembalu to me.

I do not know the local and correct name for the wood in the Malay wrongko.

I have seen this degree of chatoyancy in many other woods, both SE Asian woods and European woods. You can find a chatoyant grain such as we see here in any number of common cabinet timbers, walnut for instance. In SE Asian timbers I've seen similar grain in scented sandalwood.

I'm afraid that from a picture of a piece of polished wood I simply cannot tell what the wood might be most of the time. I'm just not that good.

EDIT I probably should add that kemuning is certainly known in Jawa, but we know it as material for jejeran; it is ideal for this purpose because it has a tight, close, fine grain.Its a yellowish wood and needs to be stained after it has been carved. In these wrongkos with highly chatoyant grain, I don't see anything that I would recognise as kemuning.

[Gustav]

Dear All,

that's what it looks like after some cleaning:

1) I was wrong, it is not timoho (probably kemuning but not stained?); just when I cleaned patra's, the bright parts seemed to be soft wood.

2) I am nearly sure now the "shadows" are dyed; the consistence of wood there seems to be harder, also better for carving - the details are better cut were the wood is black.

The long lines visible now on bright parts are recognizable also within the "shadow".

The wood of my wrongko IS darker and more reddish then on the two pictures; the natural color is more like in the one with keris inside (same post).

There are some wrongko examples from Hidayat's site. It seems, he calls it Kemuning when long paralel lines in the wood are visible, sometimes it seems to be the only difference.

Trembalo: http://keris.fotopic.net/p55407012.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html , http://keris.fotopic.net/p52103495.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p61975575.html

Kemuning: http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50299622.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50103001.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p52104027.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p45534487.html

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear All,

that's what it looks like after some cleaning:

1) I was wrong, it is not timoho (probably kemuning but not stained?); just when I cleaned patra's, the bright parts seemed to be soft wood.

2) I am nearly sure now the "shadows" are dyed; the consistence of wood there seems to be harder, also better for carving - the details are better cut were the wood is black.

The long lines visible now on bright parts are recognizable also within the "shadow".

The wood of my wrongko IS darker and more reddish then on the two pictures; the natural color is more like in the one with keris inside (same post).

There are some wrongko examples from Hidayat's site. It seems, he calls it Kemuning when long paralel lines in the wood are visible, sometimes it seems to be the only difference.

Trembalo: http://keris.fotopic.net/p55407012.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html , http://keris.fotopic.net/p52103495.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p61975575.html

Kemuning: http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50299622.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50103001.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p52104027.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p45534487.html

Hello Gustav,

nice jejeran. I think that you want to write under 2. that you sure that the black parts are not dyed. And it will be like this since nothing is gone from the black by the cleaning.

About kemuning and trembalo: It's still a mystery for me to differ between this two woods, special after seeing the examples you have shown.

Best,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe the people who are taking part in this conversation are aware that I deal, ie, I buy and sell keris.

I also have very extensive experience and many contacts in the dealer network in Indonesia, that stretch back over 40 years.

Perhaps it might be as well to note that a dealer will often discover that the name of something is what a number of his buyers would like it to be.

Never forget:- the customer is always right.

And this applies doubly in Indonesia.

Many dealers, especially Indonesian dealers, are extremely knowledgeable, but that does not mean that what they tell their customers is necessarily what they themselves know, or believe, to be accurate.

In Jawa you simply do not find a lot of big kemuning trees, thus it is not regarded as a wrongko wood, but rather as a wood for jejeran. Outside Jawa in the Peninsula, and probably Kalimantan, it seems there are more big kemuning trees, so it is used for wrongkos, because sometimes you do get nginden (chatoyant) grain in kemuning.

Another quite common wood that is used in Jawa for wrongkos, and has distinct similarities to kemuning is akasia.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I believe the people who are taking part in this conversation are aware that I deal, ie, I buy and sell keris.

I also have very extensive experience and many contacts in the dealer network in Indonesia, that stretch back over 40 years.

Perhaps it might be as well to note that a dealer will often discover that the name of something is what a number of his buyers would like it to be.

Never forget:- the customer is always right.

And this applies doubly in Indonesia.

Many dealers, especially Indonesian dealers, are extremely knowledgeable, but that does not mean that what they tell their customers is necessarily what they themselves know, or believe, to be accurate.

In Jawa you simply do not find a lot of big kemuning trees, thus it is not regarded as a wrongko wood, but rather as a wood for jejeran. Outside Jawa in the Peninsula, and probably Kalimantan, it seems there are more big kemuning trees, so it is used for wrongkos, because sometimes you do get nginden (chatoyant) grain in kemuning.

Another quite common wood that is used in Jawa for wrongkos, and has distinct similarities to kemuning is akasia.

Yes, without doubt you are right. I am a little bit younger than you, don't have spend so many time in Indonesia and mainly my treasury of words in bahasa indonesia is very bordered and my knowledge of keris is extremely limited but this is something I have learned.

So I take it as fact that when you have a javanese/madurese wrongko with a grain like this it will be mainly from trembalu or one of the other woods you mentioned. And the wrongkos from Peninsula as well Bugis wrongkos most of the time from kemuning. Thank's again for the time you spend by this.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm not saying that it is not possible for a Javanese wrongko to be from kemuning.

I'm sure some older wrongkos, were from kemuning, but I have never seen or handled one that people who know more than I do identified as kemuning. Over the years I have known three or four tukang wrongko very well, and a couple of tukang jejeran very well. The tukang jejeran would not infrequently mention kemuning, the tukang wrongko never did.

Kemuning is a light coloured yellowish wood. If it is dark, it has been stained, If a wood that is darkish and has the appearance of kemuning has not been stained, it is not kemuning.

There is a type of kemuning that is called "red kemuning" (kemuning bang), but its only reddish when it is freshly cut, when it dries its just as pale as any other kemuning.

Kemuning that has a nginden grain is very, very difficult to work, the nginden grain is fibrous, and it is exceptionally difficult to get a good polished finish to it, so even if there were to be a piece large enough for a wrongko, the finishing of it to wrongko standard poses a problem.

Kemuning does not look anything like trembalu, and trembalu does not look anything like akasia, even though both usually have a nginden grain.

[sirek]

perhaps you can see the differences in these pictures?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The Jawa wrongko looks like trembalu to me.

I do not know the local and correct name for the wood in the Malay wrongko.

I have seen this degree of chatoyancy in many other woods, both SE Asian woods and European woods. You can find a chatoyant grain such as we see here in any number of common cabinet timbers, walnut for instance. In SE Asian timbers I've seen similar grain in scented sandalwood.

I'm afraid that from a picture of a piece of polished wood I simply cannot tell what the wood might be most of the time. I'm just not that good.

EDIT I probably should add that kemuning is certainly known in Jawa, but we know it as material for jejeran; it is ideal for this purpose because it has a tight, close, fine grain.Its a yellowish wood and needs to be stained after it has been carved. In these wrongkos with highly chatoyant grain, I don't see anything that I would recognise as kemuning.

Thank you Alain for the time you spend by this. And you are right; I also know this grain from walnut, very similar. And it's maybe possible that there are different sorts of kemuning.