comments on this barung lamenation?

Rick · 2nd June 2005, 02:49 PM

Not at all Spujer .

Interestingly the punto cup is filled with lead .

Federico · 2nd June 2005, 10:04 PM

Hello Spunjer

By complete I mean it doesnt look like its had parts swapped around, eg. original hilt, scabbard, etc... My own personal feeling (not some resounding decree, just an opinion) is this is a transitional piece, bridging the time after the American takeover to WWII. So anywhere between 1900-WWII. Since it bares so much resemblence to more modern pieces, I would even go further to guess around 1920-WWII, a time period when lots of the modern traits start to pop up, from one piece kris (eg. no separable gangya), blockish cockatua (eg. the modern style), upturned barung scabbards (modern style), thinner rattan, etc... Anyways, thats just an opinion, could very well be older, newer, from another dimension, etc.. However, given the most common time of collection, for the vast variety of Moro Swords in the US is after 1900, I figure odds of getting a pre-1900 piece in general really depends on how many warriors brought old blades to the battle, which while not un-common, I figure a larger number would bring their own personal piece that was made for them in relatively recent years. I like my father's gun, but my newly made Kimber is far more reliable and accurate, so I tend to take that to the range. Then again, there is that whole Pusaka factor, older blades may have more power, but then just in general, one doesnt see old blades worn to often in period pics, usually contemporary pieces (given the time of the pic). Oh well, another nonsensical rambling post.

zamboanga · 3rd June 2005, 06:49 AM

are there any theories on the evolution of the shandigan barongs? any particular period they evolved?

from what I have heard from some of the locals, shandigan barongs were influenced by yakan piras (the later forms and not the older types) which regularly have shandigan features.

Federico · 3rd June 2005, 07:22 AM

Carlo so far you have the most info Ive seen on this style. Ive never heard the pira influence before. In Cecil's catalog he mentions they were made by grinding of the top side of the blade (though I bet instead of grinding away precious steel they were probably forged that way at least from a contruction point it would be easier to forge than to grind by hand that much steel) to reduce weight but keep a strong cutting edge. I do know that most of the Shandigan pieces I have seen pop up on the market have been WWII era pieces, but there are a number of earlier ones that pop up on occaision. However, with dating schemes the way they are (guessing schemes more like it) its hard to tell if these early pieces are post 1900 or 300 years old. Though what it sounds like from what you have been told, and the higher incidence of newer made barongs with this feature, it may have been a newer (eg. post American era) invention. It would be interesting to see if anyone had a Shandigan barong with provenance earlier than the American era. Anyways, just my rambling guesses.

Spunjer · 3rd June 2005, 05:21 PM

beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle?

federico,
your theory is plausible. not that it matters much, but i'm hoping it is a 19thc. piece. why? i don't know. i just like the way it sounds, lol. "19th c. shandigan Barung".
i believe ian brought this up a few months ago, about shandigans flourishing post 1900's. as for a pre span-am war era, would the infamous god of war barung from the Mets qualify as one? now, if that's a pre-1900, why isn't the shandigan type more prevalent? is it reserved for a certain class? since the blade is in the sheath when not in use, i guess we can disregard the reason that it was made for looks, right?

Federico · 3rd June 2005, 07:35 PM

Spunjer

Now that you say it, 19th Century Shandigan Barong does roll off the lips very nicely. Anyways, no real insights into the matter, just thinking out loud. Its just a high rate of incidence in newer style pieces, whereas there are so few old style ones. Then throw in the difficulty in dating old ones without provenance (if we believe Cato the old style continued well up into the 30s), then its difficult to say oh thats definitely a 19th century piece vs something made in say 1912. I like Cecil's notion, that the were made this way to reduce weight. The vast majority of this style I have encountered (including my own) have been no-frills fighting pieces, and who would be more concerned with wieght and balance than someone with a no-frills fighting blade. Mine at least is definitely one of my lighter and more graceful barongs, despite it being the longest one I have. Makes great sense particularly as newer blades got longer, the extra length would thus add weight, and that could definitely effect fighting balance. I know if someone told me I could have the extra length but the same weight as a smaller piece, I would definitely jump at the chance. Oh well just more rambling thoughts.

Rick · 3rd June 2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle?

Pictures are better than words .

You can see the P.O.B. .
The braiding is resined woven fiber of some sort .

I don't study FMA so I'm afraid I couldn't comment much on handling , but it feels balanced and fast , weighted to the center of percussion rather than tip heavy .
The blade is 1/4" thick and only 11 1/2" long with very little distal taper until the last 2" so I doubt that the small amount of lead makes much difference .
This sword would seem to combine the impact power of a larger blade in a very compact package .

Any comments on age anyone ?

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 03:00 AM

Interesting; I just got a Batangas(?) sword whose ferule end and tang tip have been poured in with lead. This is often seen on underclass/Indian N American stuff?
I have an idea that hollow ground flats are something that kind of swept through oceanic E Asia at some time (early 20th....?.....), perhaps viewed as a mark of modernity/Europeanism? Perhaps related to the hollowed-flat kukuri? I've seen it on old Moro swords, Japanese swords, Indonesian swords, and on many newer PI swords that seem to be made on Luzon/Batangas.
I have not owned a shandigan barong. Is it as if a regular barong had been made a wide shallow groove into, or as if a regular barong had an added ridge of metal at the top of a secondary bevel? Seem a fine distinction? It is, and may not be consistant among examples; to some extent a matter of philosophy/viewpoint, but the crux of the biscuit is: Is the angle of the edge bevel more acute, more obtuse, or the same on shandigan and flat barongs? Is the edge bevel also hollow ground?

Federico · 4th June 2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Any comments on age anyone ?

It's old

Definitely a pre-30s piece, the rear crest flows nicely from the butt line of the pommel. Combine that with a small blade, very likely a good old piece (now you can figure out what "old" means to you).

2nd June 2005, 02:49 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Not at all Spujer . Interestingly the punto cup is filled with lead . Attached Images

2nd June 2005, 10:04 PM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Hello Spunjer By complete I mean it doesnt look like its had parts swapped around, eg. original hilt, scabbard, etc... My own personal feeling (not some resounding decree, just an opinion) is this is a transitional piece, bridging the time after the American takeover to WWII. So anywhere between 1900-WWII. Since it bares so much resemblence to more modern pieces, I would even go further to guess around 1920-WWII, a time period when lots of the modern traits start to pop up, from one piece kris (eg. no separable gangya), blockish cockatua (eg. the modern style), upturned barung scabbards (modern style), thinner rattan, etc... Anyways, thats just an opinion, could very well be older, newer, from another dimension, etc.. However, given the most common time of collection, for the vast variety of Moro Swords in the US is after 1900, I figure odds of getting a pre-1900 piece in general really depends on how many warriors brought old blades to the battle, which while not un-common, I figure a larger number would bring their own personal piece that was made for them in relatively recent years. I like my father's gun, but my newly made Kimber is far more reliable and accurate, so I tend to take that to the range. Then again, there is that whole Pusaka factor, older blades may have more power, but then just in general, one doesnt see old blades worn to often in period pics, usually contemporary pieces (given the time of the pic). Oh well, another nonsensical rambling post.

3rd June 2005, 06:49 AM	#3
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	are there any theories on the evolution of the shandigan barongs? any particular period they evolved? from what I have heard from some of the locals, shandigan barongs were influenced by yakan piras (the later forms and not the older types) which regularly have shandigan features.

3rd June 2005, 07:22 AM	#4
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Carlo so far you have the most info Ive seen on this style. Ive never heard the pira influence before. In Cecil's catalog he mentions they were made by grinding of the top side of the blade (though I bet instead of grinding away precious steel they were probably forged that way at least from a contruction point it would be easier to forge than to grind by hand that much steel) to reduce weight but keep a strong cutting edge. I do know that most of the Shandigan pieces I have seen pop up on the market have been WWII era pieces, but there are a number of earlier ones that pop up on occaision. However, with dating schemes the way they are (guessing schemes more like it) its hard to tell if these early pieces are post 1900 or 300 years old. Though what it sounds like from what you have been told, and the higher incidence of newer made barongs with this feature, it may have been a newer (eg. post American era) invention. It would be interesting to see if anyone had a Shandigan barong with provenance earlier than the American era. Anyways, just my rambling guesses.

3rd June 2005, 05:21 PM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	beautiful barung, rick. lead you say? doesn't it feel heavy or does it feel balance? also, is that silver braiding on the handle? federico, your theory is plausible. not that it matters much, but i'm hoping it is a 19thc. piece. why? i don't know. i just like the way it sounds, lol. "19th c. shandigan Barung". i believe ian brought this up a few months ago, about shandigans flourishing post 1900's. as for a pre span-am war era, would the infamous god of war barung from the Mets qualify as one? now, if that's a pre-1900, why isn't the shandigan type more prevalent? is it reserved for a certain class? since the blade is in the sheath when not in use, i guess we can disregard the reason that it was made for looks, right?

3rd June 2005, 07:35 PM	#6
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Spunjer Now that you say it, 19th Century Shandigan Barong does roll off the lips very nicely. Anyways, no real insights into the matter, just thinking out loud. Its just a high rate of incidence in newer style pieces, whereas there are so few old style ones. Then throw in the difficulty in dating old ones without provenance (if we believe Cato the old style continued well up into the 30s), then its difficult to say oh thats definitely a 19th century piece vs something made in say 1912. I like Cecil's notion, that the were made this way to reduce weight. The vast majority of this style I have encountered (including my own) have been no-frills fighting pieces, and who would be more concerned with wieght and balance than someone with a no-frills fighting blade. Mine at least is definitely one of my lighter and more graceful barongs, despite it being the longest one I have. Makes great sense particularly as newer blades got longer, the extra length would thus add weight, and that could definitely effect fighting balance. I know if someone told me I could have the extra length but the same weight as a smaller piece, I would definitely jump at the chance. Oh well just more rambling thoughts.

4th June 2005, 03:00 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Interesting; I just got a Batangas(?) sword whose ferule end and tang tip have been poured in with lead. This is often seen on underclass/Indian N American stuff? I have an idea that hollow ground flats are something that kind of swept through oceanic E Asia at some time (early 20th....?.....), perhaps viewed as a mark of modernity/Europeanism? Perhaps related to the hollowed-flat kukuri? I've seen it on old Moro swords, Japanese swords, Indonesian swords, and on many newer PI swords that seem to be made on Luzon/Batangas. I have not owned a shandigan barong. Is it as if a regular barong had been made a wide shallow groove into, or as if a regular barong had an added ridge of metal at the top of a secondary bevel? Seem a fine distinction? It is, and may not be consistant among examples; to some extent a matter of philosophy/viewpoint, but the crux of the biscuit is: Is the angle of the edge bevel more acute, more obtuse, or the same on shandigan and flat barongs? Is the edge bevel also hollow ground?