comments on this barung lamenation?

Gt Obach · 1st June 2005, 02:06 PM

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......

( oh... and billet was also shimmed between the billet on the last fold )

forging a billet out on its welds like this.... really tests how strong your forge welds are....because a poor weld will delaminate easy....

by the way......I love these Barongs .... some day i'll get my mitts on one...

cool post
Greg

Federico · 1st June 2005, 03:54 PM

Fairly common lamination pattern, done very well. Part of the problem with the net, while a great resource, tends to have a limited selection of actual examples, so it can be hard to guage commonality just on the web. Have a few barongs with similar construction, though in varying degrees of finesse. I figure you could easily say pre WWII for the piece, there isnt a center ridge on the scabbard (hallmark of a post WWII scabbard). Though, at least from the cockatua, I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete.

tom hyle · 2nd June 2005, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

I second the sandwich billet for the top..

basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol

second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out......

Greg

I'm almost 100% sure that what Rsword meant by "sandwich" is what is (incorrectly from what I'm told) called "san mai" in USA; a full-width layer of edge steel welded between two full-width side plates of iron or lower carbon steel.
Otherwise, I basically agree. I don't think the edge bits were welded on before the final fold, as you propose, and I highly suspect they are pinced into the edge of the blade. Both blades show some sign of this.

Gt Obach · 2nd June 2005, 05:33 AM

oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates...

as for the center .... its to your advantage to add a layer inbetween when you fold steel... it makes up for the steel lost due to forge scale... (therefore keeping your billet from shrinking in size)

as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal)

but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines....

heres a little knife I just made..... cept its got twists and folded...... and no outer edge......but it has the lines

http://gal.bladesmith.org/view_album...e=greg_t_obach

Greg

tom hyle · 2nd June 2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates...
Greg

Yes, and when you have a sandwich like that part way into the process and you turn it on its edge and smash it flat in the perpendicular plane, so the previously wide layers are now narrow panels, calling that final product a sandwich is stretching clarity. Also, as I say, I'm almost certain it isn't what Rsword meant.

tom hyle · 2nd June 2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal)

but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines....

Greg

This all may seem sensible, but what I'm speaking from about oceanic SE Asian swords is not sense and reason; it is experience; in my experience the pinched edge is common; the butt welded edge is uncommon, and in older European blacksmithing books (I can't read the Asian ones) is spoken of as being weak. One does see it on many swords, however, including Moro ones, and it is possible here (though likely made in layers and upended the bodies of these swords could be spoken of as composed of narrow buttwelded panels). These just do not look like buttwelds I have seen of this type, which tend to be fairly straight; they look like pinched in edges I've seen, but that is indeed an awful fine distinction to make from photos. I've little doubt that in person either of us could fairly easily see which it is, but seeing this stuff does not come easy to everyone; minds are different from each other. I by no means think it's impossible the edges are butt welded; I just doubt it.

Spunjer · 2nd June 2005, 02:06 PM

W

W! didn't realize this thread was going to get this much response! thanks for everyone's comments. sure learned a lot about forging. but what is the difference between pile and sandwich? sounds like it's the same process. tom, i know you brought up on another thread how lamination style could be an age indicator. would be nice if that can be proven on barungs, since the laminations are more readily available on these weapons. as for what i got, i wasn't aware this type of lamination was common; i just never saw other examples. thanks for the pic, rick. it does look similar to mine. mind showing the full sword

?
federico, could you please elaborate when you wrote:

Quote:

"...I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete."

by that, did you mean because it came with the scabbard?

Rick · 2nd June 2005, 02:49 PM

Not at all Spujer .

Interestingly the punto cup is filled with lead .

Federico · 2nd June 2005, 10:04 PM

Hello Spunjer

By complete I mean it doesnt look like its had parts swapped around, eg. original hilt, scabbard, etc... My own personal feeling (not some resounding decree, just an opinion) is this is a transitional piece, bridging the time after the American takeover to WWII. So anywhere between 1900-WWII. Since it bares so much resemblence to more modern pieces, I would even go further to guess around 1920-WWII, a time period when lots of the modern traits start to pop up, from one piece kris (eg. no separable gangya), blockish cockatua (eg. the modern style), upturned barung scabbards (modern style), thinner rattan, etc... Anyways, thats just an opinion, could very well be older, newer, from another dimension, etc.. However, given the most common time of collection, for the vast variety of Moro Swords in the US is after 1900, I figure odds of getting a pre-1900 piece in general really depends on how many warriors brought old blades to the battle, which while not un-common, I figure a larger number would bring their own personal piece that was made for them in relatively recent years. I like my father's gun, but my newly made Kimber is far more reliable and accurate, so I tend to take that to the range. Then again, there is that whole Pusaka factor, older blades may have more power, but then just in general, one doesnt see old blades worn to often in period pics, usually contemporary pieces (given the time of the pic). Oh well, another nonsensical rambling post.

zamboanga · 3rd June 2005, 06:49 AM

are there any theories on the evolution of the shandigan barongs? any particular period they evolved?

from what I have heard from some of the locals, shandigan barongs were influenced by yakan piras (the later forms and not the older types) which regularly have shandigan features.

2nd June 2005, 02:49 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Not at all Spujer . Interestingly the punto cup is filled with lead . Attached Images

1st June 2005, 02:06 PM	#1
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	I second the sandwich billet for the top.. basically its a flat stack...forged out ... then the final shape is forge on the edge of the billet.... like turning a sandwich sideways so you can see whats in it.. lol second one looks the same......but a thick shim (possibly high carb steel) was added to the top and bottom of the flat stack when forging out...... ( oh... and billet was also shimmed between the billet on the last fold ) forging a billet out on its welds like this.... really tests how strong your forge welds are....because a poor weld will delaminate easy.... by the way......I love these Barongs .... some day i'll get my mitts on one... cool post Greg

1st June 2005, 03:54 PM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Fairly common lamination pattern, done very well. Part of the problem with the net, while a great resource, tends to have a limited selection of actual examples, so it can be hard to guage commonality just on the web. Have a few barongs with similar construction, though in varying degrees of finesse. I figure you could easily say pre WWII for the piece, there isnt a center ridge on the scabbard (hallmark of a post WWII scabbard). Though, at least from the cockatua, I would tend to shy away from the 19th century, particularly since this piece looks so complete.

2nd June 2005, 05:33 AM	#4
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	oh I see...... my idea of a sandwich is basically a stack of flat laminates... as for the center .... its to your advantage to add a layer inbetween when you fold steel... it makes up for the steel lost due to forge scale... (therefore keeping your billet from shrinking in size) as for a pinced edge..... if this is the similar technique used to weld the steeled bit into an axehead....I can see lots of problems happening if you were to do this with a thin edge.... hot cutting the slot or groove for the steel bit/edge to fit in would be hard to do... (theres not enough metal) but if you were to add the steel after the billet is squared and then pointed at one end..... you'd end up with a thick edge look .....its very similar to viking twist core swords........ cept this has no twists..... and the core laminates are sideways to show long lines.... heres a little knife I just made..... cept its got twists and folded...... and no outer edge......but it has the lines http://gal.bladesmith.org/view_album...e=greg_t_obach Greg

2nd June 2005, 10:04 PM	#9
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Hello Spunjer By complete I mean it doesnt look like its had parts swapped around, eg. original hilt, scabbard, etc... My own personal feeling (not some resounding decree, just an opinion) is this is a transitional piece, bridging the time after the American takeover to WWII. So anywhere between 1900-WWII. Since it bares so much resemblence to more modern pieces, I would even go further to guess around 1920-WWII, a time period when lots of the modern traits start to pop up, from one piece kris (eg. no separable gangya), blockish cockatua (eg. the modern style), upturned barung scabbards (modern style), thinner rattan, etc... Anyways, thats just an opinion, could very well be older, newer, from another dimension, etc.. However, given the most common time of collection, for the vast variety of Moro Swords in the US is after 1900, I figure odds of getting a pre-1900 piece in general really depends on how many warriors brought old blades to the battle, which while not un-common, I figure a larger number would bring their own personal piece that was made for them in relatively recent years. I like my father's gun, but my newly made Kimber is far more reliable and accurate, so I tend to take that to the range. Then again, there is that whole Pusaka factor, older blades may have more power, but then just in general, one doesnt see old blades worn to often in period pics, usually contemporary pieces (given the time of the pic). Oh well, another nonsensical rambling post.

3rd June 2005, 06:49 AM	#10
zamboanga Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: zamboanga city, philippines Posts: 132	are there any theories on the evolution of the shandigan barongs? any particular period they evolved? from what I have heard from some of the locals, shandigan barongs were influenced by yakan piras (the later forms and not the older types) which regularly have shandigan features.