Etching, Conservation, and when to do nothing?

Ferguson · 1st June 2005, 01:06 AM

I just received this sundang today. It's not particularly old, having a gangya that is not separate. But the condition is very good. The blade has a blue patina that is beautiful to me, almost like an old firearm. It's not rare, but for a new collector like myself, it's one of my better pieces.

The thing is, I love to etch blades. Finding that pattern welded steel is such a rush, like......well let's just say it's fulfilling!

But this one has no rust, and no reason to clean it from a conservation standpoint. It's in fine polish, having been coated in grease, from the looks of it.

The rattan has a few pieces of the old cellophane tape on it. I'll remove that and tack down the loose pieces with a tiny drop of superglue underneath the loose rattan. Cleaning and some rennaisance wax will take care of the scabbard.

The hilt is wrapped with sennet cord that is just a tad loose. Should I put something on it to stabilize it? Pitch maybe? Or again, do nothing?

But the blade. I'm leaving that alone. It just feels wrong to do anything to that lovely blade. She's staying just like she is, oiled and sharp. I know there's beauty underneath, but to find it would be like lifting a ladies skirt. Just wrong.

More pics for anyone interested at http://photobucket.com/albums/v163/s...ublic/Sundang/

Thanks,

Steve

Rick · 1st June 2005, 02:04 AM

I have a very similar piece (straight blade) with the exact style of decoration burned onto the rattan wrap ; looks like seagrass waving in the tide doesn't it ?
I know it's hard to resist but leaving it be is the best decision .
Try a Elmer's type glue rather than a resin glue on the wrap ; wipe off the excess with a damp cloth .

It's a beauty just as it is .

Ian · 1st June 2005, 05:22 AM

Steve:

Very pretty kris. Are you sure that the gangya is not in two pieces? I know that the distinction can be tricky to detect to determine. This sword is much nicer than the usual 20th C. one-piece constructions. Sulu in style, including the scabbard, but a heavier blade than most Sulu kris.

Where did you find it?

Ian.

zelbone · 1st June 2005, 07:46 AM

Very nice kalis taluseko

! As for the hilt, I'd leave it alone unless you plan on actually swinging it around frequently. Use pitch if that's the case. Nice find!

tom hyle · 1st June 2005, 10:49 AM

I thought from the title this would be a much more broadly construed thread....It's certainly hard to tell from a photo a faked ganga line from a real one. It does look like a real one though. In any case, as others have mentioned previously, there is a certain number of 19th c. well made kris sundang without gangas (and same for k(e)ris). AFAIK the reason/explanation behind this is not known. I'm no expert in the matter, but I think that the shape of the waves, etc. can be more telling.
I think that in the close up of the tip I can see a sandwich type lamination, which is usual.
Phillip Tom doesn't seem to be here, so I'll be the one to mention that the groove grinding looks a bit crude/unsteady. AFAIK this is not a sign of moderness (or of oldness).

Ferguson · 1st June 2005, 12:25 PM

Rick, Thanks for the tip on the glue. I'll take your advice, and do the minimum.

Ian, the line marking the gangya is chiseled in. It came from Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1
The fact that no one I recognized bid on it worried me a little, but it turned out great. It's very similar to another piece that I got a while back. A picuture is here http://photobucket.com/albums/v163/s...isoverall2.jpg. Thanks for your insights.

Zelbone! Thanks for the tip. I'll probably leave the hilt alone, as the wrap is tight enough for casual handling. It's just that one thing I require from any piece in my small collection is that it is functional. Thanks.

Tom, I didn't mean to mislead. Those were just the issues I was thinking of when I wrote. It would be great if this thread would broaden to discuss conservation in general. The gangya is definitely one piece with the blade. But the workmanship as a whole looks very good. The fuller looks like it was ground in with a wheel, then finished with a coarse stone. Thank you for your comments.

One thing I noticed is that it's a differnent "hand" than my 2 other sundang that have scabbards. This one looks "right handed". Made to be carried on the left side of the body, with the decoration facing outward, and drawn with the right hand across the body. The other two are opposite.

Thank you all for your comments and insights.

Steve

Rick · 1st June 2005, 04:18 PM

I had to haul out my example of this type .

Note to Steve , fish glue is even better than Elmers as it is water soluble and can be totally removed if needed .

Anyway , you can see the design on the scabbard and the blade pattern ; the forging and file work do not compare to Steve's but I will say that this kris is the sharpest of all that I own . Sometimes just looking at it will cut you !

This blade is evil sharp .

Federico · 1st June 2005, 04:39 PM

I second Rick's recommendation for elmers white glue with the rattan. Can easily be removed, not as water soluable as fish glue, but warm water and some elbow grease can remove it.

As for repairing the hilt wrap. Sounds like a good plan to leave it alone. However, if it was in real bad shape, you can back up the fibers by using really really diluted super glue (dilute with acetone). When done right, it should re-inforce the fibers to prevent future decay, but since it is clear should not interfere with the look of the piece. Just make sure it is thinned out enough, so that the fibers can actually absorb the glue and not just sit on the surface.

As for pitch/lacquer. There is one guarantee, it will look new. I generally wont re-lacquer unless Im doing a new wrap. Ive found pitch to work better on coarser wraps, like thick jute cord or wire wraps. But for the thinner wraps, black lacquer gets absorbed rather well, and really tightens up the wrap. However, since its new its bright and shiny. Not really great for spot repairs either, since the spots would be real bright and shiny. So, really something that works best if redoing the whole thing.

Anyways, nice kris. Ive seen alot of the bigger bladed kris from sulu given a 1950s-60s date in some catalogs (well we know which ones). Cant say if its a trend, or just coincidence.

Ian · 1st June 2005, 05:46 PM

Steve:

Either way, the blade could still be drawn across the body with the right hand. Some Moro wear their kris with the pommel down, familiar to us in the way we usually wear a sword (if it were a single-edged sword, the edge would face downwards as the sword is drawn). But other Moro wear the kris with the pommel up, and there are pictures of this orientation with the sword being drawn. I will try to dig one out. I know there is a picture of a Sulu man drawing his kris in this fashion in the book, From the Rainbow's Varied Hue, by Hamilton.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

One thing I noticed is that it's a differnent "hand" than my 2 other sundang that have scabbards. This one looks "right handed". Made to be carried on the left side of the body, with the decoration facing outward, and drawn with the right hand across the body. The other two are opposite.

Steve

Rick · 1st June 2005, 06:07 PM

Here's one from THE TAUSUG .

Ferguson · 1st June 2005, 07:30 PM

You guys are great. There's so much knowledge here, and my capacity to absorb it seems to diminish yearly.

Thank you all so much.

Steve

nechesh · 2nd June 2005, 01:44 AM

Yep, gotta agree Steve. As the old saying goes, "Every day i learn more and more about less and less until pretty soon i will know everything there is to know about nothing!"

That's a real interesting draw there Rick, with the keris oriented in what would normal appear to be upside down. but i gave it a try and it really is the quicker and more effective way to draw a kris.

Rick · 2nd June 2005, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Yep, gotta agree Steve. As the old saying goes, "Every day i learn more and more about less and less until pretty soon i will know everything there is to know about nothing!"

That's a real interesting draw there Rick, with the keris oriented in what would normal appear to be upside down. but i gave it a try and it really is the quicker and more effective way to draw a kris.

Yes it is .
It comes out all ready for the downward cut .

Also defensively the draw blocks an incoming cut with the opponent's blade .
The same orientation applies to the Kirach and the Afghan sabre .

tom hyle · 2nd June 2005, 02:40 PM

Yes, one encounters this repeatedly, either as the usual way somewhere for some time, or as an option. I'll just quickly mention mandau and daito. Most swords draw quite well from this angle, and as Rick says the draw translates very comfortably into an instant strike. Also, the primary ("true") edge of the sword is kept from rubbing/etc. during carry. I hadn't known Moro swords were/are worn like this; it may explain something about a large gunong I have. Now, why would a khoumiya be decorated on one side of the handle, and grooved only on the opposite side of the blade? (Left-handed handle on right handed dagger? Hmmm. Which way do khoumiya point when worn? How tolerant is Moorish culture of lefthandedness?)

Federico · 2nd June 2005, 11:08 PM

It would be interesting to hear how common this upside down draw is. Aside from that photo, all the other photos I have seen (period and otherwise), have been oriented for a more regular cutting edge down draw (unless there is a high incidence of Southpaws in Moroland). Given that this is a pic from the 60s, there could be a variety of other influencing factors. It would be interesting to see someone who actually practices Moro fighting arts, such as Silat, to comment on how their training orientates the scabbard/draw. Morningstar or Mabagani, care to give us some insights?

1st June 2005, 01:06 AM	#1
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Etching, Conservation, and when to do nothing? I just received this sundang today. It's not particularly old, having a gangya that is not separate. But the condition is very good. The blade has a blue patina that is beautiful to me, almost like an old firearm. It's not rare, but for a new collector like myself, it's one of my better pieces. The thing is, I love to etch blades. Finding that pattern welded steel is such a rush, like......well let's just say it's fulfilling! But this one has no rust, and no reason to clean it from a conservation standpoint. It's in fine polish, having been coated in grease, from the looks of it. The rattan has a few pieces of the old cellophane tape on it. I'll remove that and tack down the loose pieces with a tiny drop of superglue underneath the loose rattan. Cleaning and some rennaisance wax will take care of the scabbard. The hilt is wrapped with sennet cord that is just a tad loose. Should I put something on it to stabilize it? Pitch maybe? Or again, do nothing? But the blade. I'm leaving that alone. It just feels wrong to do anything to that lovely blade. She's staying just like she is, oiled and sharp. I know there's beauty underneath, but to find it would be like lifting a ladies skirt. Just wrong. More pics for anyone interested at http://photobucket.com/albums/v163/s...ublic/Sundang/ Thanks, Steve Attached Images

1st June 2005, 02:04 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	My Opinion ? I have a very similar piece (straight blade) with the exact style of decoration burned onto the rattan wrap ; looks like seagrass waving in the tide doesn't it ? I know it's hard to resist but leaving it be is the best decision . Try a Elmer's type glue rather than a resin glue on the wrap ; wipe off the excess with a damp cloth . It's a beauty just as it is .

1st June 2005, 04:18 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	As Usual I had to haul out my example of this type . Note to Steve , fish glue is even better than Elmers as it is water soluble and can be totally removed if needed . Anyway , you can see the design on the scabbard and the blade pattern ; the forging and file work do not compare to Steve's but I will say that this kris is the sharpest of all that I own . Sometimes just looking at it will cut you ! This blade is evil sharp . Attached Images

1st June 2005, 06:07 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Here's one from THE TAUSUG . Attached Images

1st June 2005, 05:22 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	Steve: Very pretty kris. Are you sure that the gangya is not in two pieces? I know that the distinction can be tricky to detect to determine. This sword is much nicer than the usual 20th C. one-piece constructions. Sulu in style, including the scabbard, but a heavier blade than most Sulu kris. Where did you find it? Ian.

1st June 2005, 07:46 AM	#4
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Very nice kalis taluseko ! As for the hilt, I'd leave it alone unless you plan on actually swinging it around frequently. Use pitch if that's the case. Nice find!

1st June 2005, 10:49 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I thought from the title this would be a much more broadly construed thread....It's certainly hard to tell from a photo a faked ganga line from a real one. It does look like a real one though. In any case, as others have mentioned previously, there is a certain number of 19th c. well made kris sundang without gangas (and same for k(e)ris). AFAIK the reason/explanation behind this is not known. I'm no expert in the matter, but I think that the shape of the waves, etc. can be more telling. I think that in the close up of the tip I can see a sandwich type lamination, which is usual. Phillip Tom doesn't seem to be here, so I'll be the one to mention that the groove grinding looks a bit crude/unsteady. AFAIK this is not a sign of moderness (or of oldness).

1st June 2005, 12:25 PM	#6
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Rick, Thanks for the tip on the glue. I'll take your advice, and do the minimum. Ian, the line marking the gangya is chiseled in. It came from Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1 The fact that no one I recognized bid on it worried me a little, but it turned out great. It's very similar to another piece that I got a while back. A picuture is here http://photobucket.com/albums/v163/s...isoverall2.jpg. Thanks for your insights. Zelbone! Thanks for the tip. I'll probably leave the hilt alone, as the wrap is tight enough for casual handling. It's just that one thing I require from any piece in my small collection is that it is functional. Thanks. Tom, I didn't mean to mislead. Those were just the issues I was thinking of when I wrote. It would be great if this thread would broaden to discuss conservation in general. The gangya is definitely one piece with the blade. But the workmanship as a whole looks very good. The fuller looks like it was ground in with a wheel, then finished with a coarse stone. Thank you for your comments. One thing I noticed is that it's a differnent "hand" than my 2 other sundang that have scabbards. This one looks "right handed". Made to be carried on the left side of the body, with the decoration facing outward, and drawn with the right hand across the body. The other two are opposite. Thank you all for your comments and insights. Steve

1st June 2005, 04:39 PM	#8
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I second Rick's recommendation for elmers white glue with the rattan. Can easily be removed, not as water soluable as fish glue, but warm water and some elbow grease can remove it. As for repairing the hilt wrap. Sounds like a good plan to leave it alone. However, if it was in real bad shape, you can back up the fibers by using really really diluted super glue (dilute with acetone). When done right, it should re-inforce the fibers to prevent future decay, but since it is clear should not interfere with the look of the piece. Just make sure it is thinned out enough, so that the fibers can actually absorb the glue and not just sit on the surface. As for pitch/lacquer. There is one guarantee, it will look new. I generally wont re-lacquer unless Im doing a new wrap. Ive found pitch to work better on coarser wraps, like thick jute cord or wire wraps. But for the thinner wraps, black lacquer gets absorbed rather well, and really tightens up the wrap. However, since its new its bright and shiny. Not really great for spot repairs either, since the spots would be real bright and shiny. So, really something that works best if redoing the whole thing. Anyways, nice kris. Ive seen alot of the bigger bladed kris from sulu given a 1950s-60s date in some catalogs (well we know which ones). Cant say if its a trend, or just coincidence.

1st June 2005, 07:30 PM	#11
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	You guys are great. There's so much knowledge here, and my capacity to absorb it seems to diminish yearly. Thank you all so much. Steve

2nd June 2005, 01:44 AM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yep, gotta agree Steve. As the old saying goes, "Every day i learn more and more about less and less until pretty soon i will know everything there is to know about nothing!" That's a real interesting draw there Rick, with the keris oriented in what would normal appear to be upside down. but i gave it a try and it really is the quicker and more effective way to draw a kris.

2nd June 2005, 02:40 PM	#14
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, one encounters this repeatedly, either as the usual way somewhere for some time, or as an option. I'll just quickly mention mandau and daito. Most swords draw quite well from this angle, and as Rick says the draw translates very comfortably into an instant strike. Also, the primary ("true") edge of the sword is kept from rubbing/etc. during carry. I hadn't known Moro swords were/are worn like this; it may explain something about a large gunong I have. Now, why would a khoumiya be decorated on one side of the handle, and grooved only on the opposite side of the blade? (Left-handed handle on right handed dagger? Hmmm. Which way do khoumiya point when worn? How tolerant is Moorish culture of lefthandedness?)

2nd June 2005, 11:08 PM	#15
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	It would be interesting to hear how common this upside down draw is. Aside from that photo, all the other photos I have seen (period and otherwise), have been oriented for a more regular cutting edge down draw (unless there is a high incidence of Southpaws in Moroland). Given that this is a pic from the 60s, there could be a variety of other influencing factors. It would be interesting to see someone who actually practices Moro fighting arts, such as Silat, to comment on how their training orientates the scabbard/draw. Morningstar or Mabagani, care to give us some insights?