Captain Kidds Treasure 'silver' (?) ingot

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2025, 10:30 PM

Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland!

The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies.
I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association.

I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time

who knows?

Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library!

David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2025, 02:22 AM

Just thinking in terms if ballast, in the case of this curiously marked lead ingot, and studying the various forms of lead ingots used as ballast in vessels of these times, there were indeed various heavy materials used as ballast.

In many cases it seems that often the ballast had to of course be dumped or removed in order to load cargo, if that be the case. With pirate or privateer vessels perhaps that would not be considered, as they were not particularly involved in trade, though obviously commodities were typically their prize for sale.

In the case of this ingot, we would consider perhaps a vessel dumping ballast for whatever reason.....but if that be the case....where is the rest?
So in addition to the suspicious markings on this example, even more telling is that it is a single bar.

This was hardly indicative of treasure trove, nor of Captain Kidds, nor his Adventure Galley ....not even a ship wreck period.

Often shipwrecks are located because of the pronounced metal target in sonar with the iron cannon which are typically part of the wreckage. Often vessels long lost are located by the finding of cannon.

However in some cases, location of cannon might suggest a wreck site, but often heavy objects and materials have been used as ballast. Old cannon, armor etc. in many cases have served as such. I wonder if these might have been tossed over to lighten load for any reason.

In the case of five cannon found off the coast of Calif. at Goleta(near Santa Barbara) these were revealed on beach when storms cleared sands. There was not however any sign of a shipwreck. It was later found that a ship had foundered in this location in 1830, but was not wrecked and later it was removed and sold. The bill of sale indicated there were 5 cannon, however obviously these had been thrown off to reduce weight ? in moving the vessel out of its grounded situation.

Meanwhile, during the excited investigation of the guns, all manner of hyperbole evolved, up to claiming these were guns from Sir Francis Drakes ship in the 16th century PROVING he had indeed been there!
Later it was found these were 18th century, but indeed from a vessel of around 1830 by testing of hemp residue on several of them.

Just another example of these premature and fantastic announcements on archaeological finds.

David R · 23rd February 2025, 12:15 AM

Re lead silver ingots, a Roman example was found in the UK all marked up as silver, but analysis proved it to be mainly lead. Roman era fraud. Became the central plot device in The Silver Pigs a 1989 historical mystery crime novel by English author Lindsey Davis.

Jim McDougall · 23rd February 2025, 08:57 PM

Thanks David!
Interesting analogy, and like piracy, devious plots and shifty characters nothing new and have been around as long as humanity in effect.
That novel sounds intriguing, 'pigs' were of course the lead ballast ingots, as called in their time of use in the age of sail.

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19th February 2025, 10:30 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thank you Rick! Man, it must have been incredible growing up in that environment! and living there. While I was of course enthralled with pirate movies, treasure island etc. as a kid, the closest I got to anything was 'pirates of the Caribbean' at Disneyland! The world you live in there is steeped in adventure and maritime lore, the stuff most of us only find in books and movies. I dont know what an orange fender is as described, but it sound like a cool thing to have with Whydah association. I hope one day to get to see that museum, and the Queen Annes Revenge, but kinda running outa time who knows? Thanks for the tip on the book, I'll add to my armchair library! David, thanks for the video, pretty impressive images and tune!

22nd February 2025, 02:22 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Just thinking in terms if ballast, in the case of this curiously marked lead ingot, and studying the various forms of lead ingots used as ballast in vessels of these times, there were indeed various heavy materials used as ballast. In many cases it seems that often the ballast had to of course be dumped or removed in order to load cargo, if that be the case. With pirate or privateer vessels perhaps that would not be considered, as they were not particularly involved in trade, though obviously commodities were typically their prize for sale. In the case of this ingot, we would consider perhaps a vessel dumping ballast for whatever reason.....but if that be the case....where is the rest? So in addition to the suspicious markings on this example, even more telling is that it is a single bar. This was hardly indicative of treasure trove, nor of Captain Kidds, nor his Adventure Galley ....not even a ship wreck period. Often shipwrecks are located because of the pronounced metal target in sonar with the iron cannon which are typically part of the wreckage. Often vessels long lost are located by the finding of cannon. However in some cases, location of cannon might suggest a wreck site, but often heavy objects and materials have been used as ballast. Old cannon, armor etc. in many cases have served as such. I wonder if these might have been tossed over to lighten load for any reason. In the case of five cannon found off the coast of Calif. at Goleta(near Santa Barbara) these were revealed on beach when storms cleared sands. There was not however any sign of a shipwreck. It was later found that a ship had foundered in this location in 1830, but was not wrecked and later it was removed and sold. The bill of sale indicated there were 5 cannon, however obviously these had been thrown off to reduce weight ? in moving the vessel out of its grounded situation. Meanwhile, during the excited investigation of the guns, all manner of hyperbole evolved, up to claiming these were guns from Sir Francis Drakes ship in the 16th century PROVING he had indeed been there! Later it was found these were 18th century, but indeed from a vessel of around 1830 by testing of hemp residue on several of them. Just another example of these premature and fantastic announcements on archaeological finds.

23rd February 2025, 12:15 AM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,114	Re lead silver ingots, a Roman example was found in the UK all marked up as silver, but analysis proved it to be mainly lead. Roman era fraud. Became the central plot device in The Silver Pigs a 1989 historical mystery crime novel by English author Lindsey Davis.

23rd February 2025, 08:57 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thanks David! Interesting analogy, and like piracy, devious plots and shifty characters nothing new and have been around as long as humanity in effect. That novel sounds intriguing, 'pigs' were of course the lead ballast ingots, as called in their time of use in the age of sail.