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#1 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
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Greetings,
I saw this piece yesterday, and didn't have a feeling that it was a true antique. The blade has no edge, and no evidence of ever being sharpened. The koftgari looks ok, but I passed on it just the same. What are your thoughts: old or contemporary? |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 424
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I agree with your statements. The blade looks crude, the koftgari has not seen use, and the blade profile seems somewhat unusual.
I'd have passed on it as well. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: What is still UK
Posts: 5,773
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Although this appears to be a fairly recent piece it does not mean that it does not belong to a tradition.
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#4 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,189
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I like the koftgari, but yes I have seen several of these on the market, new work from India.
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#5 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
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I'm glad that my suspicions are shared!
The piece was represented by the seller as a veritable antique, and that he's had it in his possession for several decades, which I didn't believe. Handling it...it just didn't feel "right". Thank you, all! |
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#6 |
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Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
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It looks like Rajasthan to me. The question I have wondered is are many of these old parts mixed with new, or all new with aging to some areas?
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#7 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
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I had one of these with Urdu on it the was made in the 1960s - several decades also therefore also.
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#8 |
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
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Yes, this is indeed of recent production.
Moreover, I do not consider this to be a pesh-kabz as it doesn't have any of the characteristics that define the pesh-kabz. It does neither have the long, sleek blade with a T- spine, nor the typical hilt adapted for under-hand grip. I would call this knife a zirah-bouk as it has the typical reinforced "armour piercing" tip. I have seen many modern versions of this type of knife but very, very few that are genuinely antique. |
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#9 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
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You bring up a good point (every pun intended
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#10 |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
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Definitely indian zirah-bouk-ish, but a bit crude. Grip doesn't look like it is intended for that blade.
Mine, late 20c +/- Zirah Bouk. I bought it because I liked it. ![]() |
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#11 |
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Yep, this would be a typical zirah-bouk.
And I like it too! ![]() I wonder if any forum member can post some images and information about a genuinely antique, 19th century zirah-bouk?! �� I am asking because I haven't seen any in all the museums I have visited in India (and I have visited quite a few). Moreover, from the practical point of view, all the zirah-bouks I have seen, while looking very impressive and attractive, are of almost no practical use whatsoever. The heavily recurved blade does not provide a good and stable transmission of the force to the tip of the knife, and the very thick tip is very badly suited for armour penetration. In fact, these knives because of their thickened tips are worse at armour penetration than pretty much any ordinary khanjar/jambiya or kard. So, I suspect these knives are mostly a 20th century development for the tourist market. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 30th October 2022 at 02:46 PM. |
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#12 | |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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This one is a crude and recent khanjar-like ( double edged) souvenir with a zirah bouk tip . If it is sharpened, it can be very useful in a midnight bar melee. |
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#13 | |
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the spike on pole-axes, halberds, Guden tags, and even some rondels, of much the same cross section & shapes, ruined the days of many an armoured knight, not penetrating the armour, but the gaps, throats, eyes, ears, etc. An unarmoured Indian warrior would be very vulnerable, I would think, tho personally I'd rather have a nice sharp bowie. |
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#14 | |
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A halebard or a pole axe are slightly different types of knives...😜 And I don't think the geometry of a rondel dagger is even remotely similar to that of the zirah-bouk. But can you find an example of zirah-bouk that is older than 20th century?! |
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#15 | |
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Zirah bouk are ultimately though still functional designs. They might not actually be the "bestest armor piercer ever", nor used on the historical battlefield, but they are still far from the zaniest weapon type - made for tourists or not - created and/or used in India. Like Ariel said, if it is sharpened it would still be useful in a bar fight |
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#16 | |
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Fernando's classy rondel is very spiky, basically a three sided spike optimized for thrusting, presumably thru armour gaps or into un-armoured people, like the weapons I mentioned. Swordfish posted another more zira bouk looking one. Fernando's Rondel Post Swordfish's post Here's an 18/19c zira bouk from the metropolitan museum. Last edited by kronckew; 31st October 2022 at 11:41 AM. |
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#17 |
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Never trust any museum attribution at face value!
What you're looking for is acquisition date (and possibly any earlier documented provenance). Even this needs to be checked since mix-ups do happen. Anything else needs to be viewed in the light of the expertise of the person proposing any attribution (if relevant for the given piece!). Looks like a promising older example though. Thanks, Wayne! Regards, Kai |
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#18 | |
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This is probably the oldest example I have seen. And indeed looks like it could be 19th century. 👍 |
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