Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th August 2006, 12:09 AM   #31
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
Default

Hi,

The arabic date seems to me as 1303 which can be correctly converted as 1885-1886.

However, from 1840 onwards the Ottomans started to use a second calendar which was called the Rumi calendar. The basic aim was to use a calendar which was compatible with the European calendar. Anyway, if your date is a Rumi date, then its Gregorian equivalent is 1887-1888.

best,
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2006, 01:34 AM   #32
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Thank you Zfir !!!

I know the Ottomans switched to a Julian (Solar) Moslem calender in the early part of the 19th century (to try to correlate with the Julian Gregorian European calendar) but I had no idea what it was called or if it was close to the Hijri (lunar) calandar.

The number 3 is unusal here, is this script used in any particular portion of the Ottoman empire?

Thank you again
Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2006, 03:43 PM   #33
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
Default

The unusual style of the number '3' in the date may have something to do with workmanship. Because, the same is true for the Gregorian date 1888 on the sword. Very weird 8's indeed I think the same think is valid for the numbers in the Hijri date.
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th August 2006, 06:06 PM   #34
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Thank you again Zifir,

I am a little confused. Is the Arabic number three used here common? I am used to seeing it written as below.

You are right about the 8's I actually found the Islamic date first and it took a while to figure out that the 8's made a Gregorian date Duh

All the best
Jeff
Attached Images
 
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2006, 01:56 AM   #35
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
Default

In hand writing, the numbers 2 and 3 have slightly different forms. I attached two examples, the first one is 9240 and the second one is 33,600. You can see how the numbers 2 and 3 in handwriting are different than their printed forms. I hope this helps.

Best,
Attached Images
  
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2006, 02:58 AM   #36
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Hi Zifir,

Yes this does help. Essentially, this "written" script of 3 could come from any where the Rumi calendar, was used. Unfortunately it doesn't particularly add anything to what has already been noted on the origin of the Black Sea yataghan.

Thank you once again it is great to have your imput.

Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th August 2006, 05:44 AM   #37
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,970
Default

It is amazing how long this discussion of these 'Black Sea' yataghans has continued, especially the 'controversy' over thier origins. The evidence for origin in North Africa consists of the single example presented in Mr. Tirri's book, which as mentioned, was discussed at the talk presented by him several years ago. This theory was supported by a caption in a Michael German catalog from London, which had suggested a North African origin without corroborating support, as well as an entry from I believe a Russian book suggesting the same.

I began studying these curious yataghans in 1996 when I acquired my first example. Back then these were actually considered relatively rare, and there was considerable speculation about them. I discovered that they had been shown in the equally rare German publication "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, a prominant German arms scholar, in 1962. They were identified there as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, and in subsequent communications with the author I found that his attribution had derived from a scholarly article written in 1941 and presented by the Danish Arms and Armour Society. References for this article derived further from a Hungarian arms scholar who had travelled in regions of the Black Sea, Caucusus etc. in the latter 19th century. These weapons were provenanced from Turkish regions c.1850's, and I did confirm thier presence and dates collected in the museum listed in communications with that museum.
After several years of confirming this data, communications with various authors and scholars, in later years these weapons were confirmed in museums in Istanbul by Lee Jones, then of course, the ultimate confirmation by Ariel in his discovery and positive identification to the Laz group.
It seems more than dozens of these have now entered collections, most associated with those found in regions described near Trans-Caucasian regions including Trebizon, Erlikan and the Caucusus.
I was also present at the forementioned talk given by Mr. Tirri in Baltimore, which was indeed very well presented. My only question was...if this sword form originated in North Africa....why was there only one left.....with all the others migrating to the regions near the Black Sea?
While the evidence supporting North African origin is admittedly compelling since it does resemble a flyssa, I am more drawn to the evidence that I discovered in the years I have researched these. I think that with the movement of Ottoman mercenaries from these regions to North Africa, an example of these being subsequently decorated there with flyssa type motif is quite plausible.

Yet the debate will undoubtedly continue.
Best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2006, 09:30 PM   #38
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
It is amazing how long this discussion of these 'Black Sea' yataghans has continued, especially the 'controversy' over thier origins. The evidence for origin in North Africa consists of the single example presented in Mr. Tirri's book, which as mentioned, was discussed at the talk presented by him several years ago. This theory was supported by a caption in a Michael German catalog from London, which had suggested a North African origin without corroborating support, as well as an entry from I believe a Russian book suggesting the same.

I began studying these curious yataghans in 1996 when I acquired my first example. Back then these were actually considered relatively rare, and there was considerable speculation about them. I discovered that they had been shown in the equally rare German publication "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, a prominant German arms scholar, in 1962. They were identified there as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, and in subsequent communications with the author I found that his attribution had derived from a scholarly article written in 1941 and presented by the Danish Arms and Armour Society. References for this article derived further from a Hungarian arms scholar who had travelled in regions of the Black Sea, Caucusus etc. in the latter 19th century. These weapons were provenanced from Turkish regions c.1850's, and I did confirm thier presence and dates collected in the museum listed in communications with that museum.
After several years of confirming this data, communications with various authors and scholars, in later years these weapons were confirmed in museums in Istanbul by Lee Jones, then of course, the ultimate confirmation by Ariel in his discovery and positive identification to the Laz group.
It seems more than dozens of these have now entered collections, most associated with those found in regions described near Trans-Caucasian regions including Trebizon, Erlikan and the Caucusus.
I was also present at the forementioned talk given by Mr. Tirri in Baltimore, which was indeed very well presented. My only question was...if this sword form originated in North Africa....why was there only one left.....with all the others migrating to the regions near the Black Sea?
While the evidence supporting North African origin is admittedly compelling since it does resemble a flyssa, I am more drawn to the evidence that I discovered in the years I have researched these. I think that with the movement of Ottoman mercenaries from these regions to North Africa, an example of these being subsequently decorated there with flyssa type motif is quite plausible.

Yet the debate will undoubtedly continue.
Best regards,
Jim
Thank you Jim,

Sorry about my slow response, I did try to respond a couple times before taking off to the islands for the last month where we have no internet. I was able to get some much required reading done and unfortunetly was unable to find much on the Rumi calendar. I was able to find that the Ottoman calendar based on the sun cycle was called the Maliye calendar and that the later part of 1303 Maliye was infact 1888 Gregorian.
I think my recent yataghan therefore supports your and the other's conclusion to the Ottoman Black Sea origin for these weapons. The Ottomans were pretty much out of North Africa by this time.

Thanks again for the references
Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2006, 10:37 PM   #39
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,970
Default

Hi Jeff,
Nicely done, thanks very much for the additional information and support!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 12:20 AM   #40
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Here is a little more on this topic. This just ended on e-bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0%3D%26fvi%3D1
Anybody recognize the style of dress?

I will post the card below for posterity.

All the best
Jeff
Attached Images
 
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 01:43 AM   #41
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

I think you got it!
The boy on the left is holding BSY (Laz Bicagi) vertically and the one in the middle seems to have the same one stuck under the belt: only handle is visible).
Too bad the pic is small! Perhaps, we can contact the buyer and offer him a deal: he will send us larger views and we shall tell him where it is from . Not a bad deal for him, I think
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 03:41 AM   #42
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,300
Default

Is this any improvement ?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 03:27 PM   #43
Mark
Member
 
Mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 987
Default

I looks to me that all of that central group are holding laz bicagi, except the fellow whose crotch is bisected by the upright one. They seem to be children, in fact. This might explain the "baby" laz bicagi that one sees.
Mark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 04:26 PM   #44
Yannis
Member
 
Yannis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 479
Default

The dresses and the music instrument of the musicians and dancers group it is Pontic, a Greek minority of Turkey. But maybe it could be worn from another ethnic group too.
Yannis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 05:37 PM   #45
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Here are Ajarians: next-door neighbours of Minghrelians ( Georgian Laz)
http://www.answers.com/topic/ajarians
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 09:41 PM   #46
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
Default

http://www.karalahana.com/english/archive/music.html

I think it's the same picture...
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 09:50 PM   #47
Zifir
Member
 
Zifir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 228
Default

And here is another one..
Attached Images
 
Zifir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 09:51 PM   #48
Yannis
Member
 
Yannis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 479
Default

I just add 2 pictures of Pontic or Pontian people to see the similarities. But I have never heard that this yataghan was their weapon. They used bitsaqs and kinjals
Attached Images
  
Yannis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd September 2006, 09:59 PM   #49
Yannis
Member
 
Yannis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 479
Default

Well, after all these years that we are looking for clues about Black Sea yataghan, I feel quit stupid I didn’t look closer to my culture!
The pictures of Zifir are very clear. If they lived in Trabzon (Trebizond or Trapezus) they must be Pontians. Or Lazs, but no Ajarians.
Yannis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd September 2006, 05:46 AM   #50
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zifir
And here is another one..
This is the best one.
But, honestly, we are seeing 3 variants of the same picture!
The color one was heavily photoshopped, though.
Trabzon is clearly indicated as the locality.
Laz!
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd September 2006, 07:20 AM   #51
Jeff D
Member
 
Jeff D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada
Posts: 473
Default

Well Done Guys!!

I think we can clearly place the Laz with this weapon.


Jeff
Jeff D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd September 2006, 07:02 PM   #52
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

The dress and musical instruments are common to Western Georgians and all other Pontic nations, including Greeks; I would guess these can be Greeks, but I would think Laz is a more likely option. Finally, the border between Georgia and Turkey, which separates Laz and Adjari was established in bloody wars, therefore there is really nothing historic about "adjarian/laz" boundaries - the language they speak is similar and belongs to the western georgian family, however Laz are typically identifying themselves as Turks and nothing else, and Ajarians are identifying themselves mostly as "muslim georgians". There are also some "georgian" colonists in Trabzon, who speak mainstream georgian and came there relatively recently, but their dress is quite different.
Rivkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2007, 07:29 PM   #53
eftihis
Member
 
eftihis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chania Crete Greece
Posts: 507
Default new pfoto

I have a new nice photo on the subject, a photo of three Pontic Greek guerillas, and one of them has a black sea yataghan.
The problem is that the photo is on a book, i scanned it, but cannot ommit the text arround the photo, so that the photo will be with little enough pixel to post it and be visible.
If someone more technologically advanged can help, i can send him the photo to make it the appropriate size.
eftihis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2007, 08:03 PM   #54
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,253
Default

Eftihis:

You have a PM

Ian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eftihis
I have a new nice photo on the subject, a photo of three Pontic Greek guerillas, and one of them has a black sea yataghan.
The problem is that the photo is on a book, i scanned it, but cannot ommit the text arround the photo, so that the photo will be with little enough pixel to post it and be visible.
If someone more technologically advanged can help, i can send him the photo to make it the appropriate size.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2007, 04:33 PM   #55
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

I am adding another thread on Black Sea yataghans ( Laz Bicagi, Karadeniz Yataghan.
Andrew wanted to pool them for a "Classic" some time ago.
Andrew, here they are, ready to be pooled.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002625.html
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2007, 11:07 PM   #56
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,253
Default Picture ...

Here is the picture from eftihis.


Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2007, 11:39 PM   #57
erlikhan
Member
 
erlikhan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 452
Default

Interesting picture. Is it something like a theatrical composition or a real warrior group ? I wonder ,because the guy on right has a Caucassian style flintlock pistol and a flintlock rifle(the guy on left as well),but the sitting guy holds a later model rifle and is equipped with its ammunitions. If it is a 1880s, 1890s or 1900s picture, I wonder if flintlocks of such an old technology, even older than percussions really continued to be functional so late in some parts of Turkey.

The long Trabzon kindjal the sitting guy wears is very nice. Meanwhile the guy on his right holds a b.s.y. hilt, but I think the scabbard form shows that its blade is not a classical b.s.y but a different form?

Last edited by erlikhan; 9th July 2007 at 09:19 AM.
erlikhan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2007, 12:09 AM   #58
Andrew
Member
 
Andrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I am adding another thread on Black Sea yataghans ( Laz Bicagi, Karadeniz Yataghan.
Andrew wanted to pool them for a "Classic" some time ago.
Andrew, here they are, ready to be pooled.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002625.html
Thanks, Ariel. Got your PM, also.

I'll link this to the "Classics".
Andrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2007, 03:57 PM   #59
Mark
Member
 
Mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 987
Talking

Speaking of classic threads, I nominate "Shaver Kool" I & II, and "Ultimate Kampilan (aka 'Look out, Charlie!')."
Mark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2007, 09:16 PM   #60
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,970
Default

This thread, or for that matter the research and discussion, on these most esoteric edged weapon examples, is indeed classic! I know that I have researched them intermittantly since I acquired my first example in 1996. I had seen them illustrated many years before in the 1962 reference "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, captioned as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Later, I found another reference to these in a 1941 article published in Denmark which listed these as Kurdish-Armenian and illustrated examples in a Danish museum provenanced c.1857 to Trebizond.

Years later Mr.Seifert told me he once had one of these with strange markings but no longer had it. I wish I could have seen those markings!!

The Danish article had noted that these were no longer used and seem to have become obsolete for many years, many being found in out buildings etc.
It seems they had a working life from around mid 19th c. to the early 20th at the latest. With what has been discovered since the important examples Ariel reported in Istanbul is most revealing. I must admit that the complexities involving in understanding the ethnic groups and minorities in these regions are perplexing, but extremely fascinating. The history involved in these regions representing so much cultural diffusion is extremely difficult, if not virtually impossible, for anyone not deeply involved in ethnic study. It is not hard to understand how specific attribution to a particular group would be difficult at best, however it does seem these weapons were indeed from the Black Sea region.It is rewarding to see that the Trebizond attribution is well placed, and corroborates the provenance found in the early research (the data for the 1941 article seems to derive from that of a Hungarian narrative c.1896).

In research I also discovered that examples of these swords were among holdings in museums in Tblisi, Georgia and it would seem that the Laz associations with Georgia and the Minghrelians would well substantiate such presence. The evidence of these weapons being used by the Pontic Greeks substantiates the Trebizond provenance since this is the region, on the Black Sea coast of Turkey occupied by these people. Since the Laz also occupy these regions the use of the form by both groups seems clear.

It would be interesting since we have discovered the proper provenance of these swords/yataghans/knives (whichever) that we return to studying the curious 'horned' pommel, its meaning? purpose? It has been suggested that of course the Turkish crescent was symbolized; that it was a fertility symbol deriving from early tribal symbolism; even that it was to serve as a gunrest in firing for accuracy. Not all of these interesting examples have the 'horned hilt' and some vary in degree....with this, the study of variants would be interesting, but as we know, speculative.

As for the blades, the distinctive needle point remains in question, and its similarity to that of the flyssa draws significant attention ( as seen in the North African associations). Seifert in his book does show the flyssa parallel to one of these, and the parallel is seen elsewhere as well. While the similarity in the bellied blades and needle point is clear, the association is not. These weapons are both latecomers in their forms, and neither provenance much before the 19th century (the flyssa well established by 1827, the BSY uncertain but likely c.1840's).

It is worthy of note that Erlikan has described these Black Sea swords as associated with the Tatars of the Crimea...this feature on Crimean sabres has been well established...the Greek colonies in Crimea are also well established...and the connection between those colonies and the Pontic Greeks in Trebizon seems given. Perhaps the point of the Tatar sabres influenced the point of these recurved sabres of Trebizond.

It would be interesting to discover more on the association between the BSY, flyssa and Tatar sabres and these distinct points.

Also the symbolism or purpose of the horned hilt.

We have discovered a lot on these! Lets learn more !!

All the best,
Jim


P.S. Shaver Kool, you're goin' down

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 10th July 2007 at 09:39 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.