DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Wowzer that last one is just about as long as I've seen any keris. Can you tell us anything more about it?
Interesting handle too - what's the material?

Hullo jagabuwana,

This may help:

Desc: Doehoeng Soember (bangkinang variant)
Char: Oepih-rai moentir, djanoer mentjar
Blade: LxOALxWxT=56x67x7.15x1.49cm.
Handle: Green-horn malati-motif w/ white-metal seloet
Wt: 462g.
Sheath: Wood majang w/ green-horn toe

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Wowzer that last one is just about as long as I've seen any keris.

According to Amuk's specs that keris panjang seems to be 56 cm. Pretty long, but not unheard of. Thought you might want another look at mine. It's blade is 58 cm, though i would not be surprised to find an even longer one.
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=panjang

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Doing some 'spring-cleaning'. Thought the following may be of interest.

Best,

[Jean]

Thank you Amuk, I guess that "landean" designates the hilt (landeyan in Madura), what does PwahAtji mean?
Regards

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you Amuk, I guess that "landean" designates the hilt (landeyan in Madura), what does PwahAtji mean?
Regards

Hullo Jean,

- landean/landéan/landeyan/landaian are the same, just different spelling/accent (c.f. apotheek/apotek/apoték/ apotik =apothecary/pharmacy); means handle.
- PwahAtji literally means “celestial and inconceivable/unimaginable” i.e. the ultimate essence beyond our ken.

Best,

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

. ..... This type of hilt is .....
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days .....

Hullo Jean,

I've changed the hilt for a 'more appropriate' one. Hope it's pleasing.
I've also attached pics of similar oversheaths from 18thC-early19thC. One was a present from Hamengkoeboewono.

Best,

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
Beautiful pieces, thank you!
The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO?
Regards

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Amuk,
Beautiful pieces, thank you!
The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO?
Regards

Hullo Jean,

You may be right, but I believe itto be northern coast of western Java.

Best,

[David]

Hi Amuk. Why do you believe the hilt you have placed on this keris originated on the North Coast of Western Jawa? It clearly appears to be a coteng hilt.
Do you have some provenance for this assertion. Though i believe many people have traced the evolutionary origin of coteng and tajong hilts back to Jawa the primogenitor hilts that are usually pointed to are not the fully developed coteng or tajong forms. But if you could show evidence that such hilts did exist in Jawa back then you would have an important discovery.

[Jean]

This piece may be a javanese copy of a tajong hilt, see the hatched decoration especially.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

This piece may be a javanese copy of a tajong hilt, see the hatched decoration especially.

Possibly. I honestly cannot judge from this one photograph. But even if made in Java to would not have been made for a Javanese keris and i am sure you agree that it is stylistically incorrect for this ensemble. While some culturally mixed keris ensembles may well have some legitimacy in ethnographic usage i would have a hard time seeing this mix of Javanese and Peninsula styles finding social acceptability in either culture.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just thought I’d post about this familiar item. It feels the appropriate place. I’m sure better and more detailed pictures are available elsewhere in this room.

blade: Mahisah Toempeng 11Eloek
hilt: Wood Sang Manarah
meas.: 44x54x9cm.
sheath: Wood Djoengan Lemah Pakwan Radjapoetra
vintage: 1512

Best,

[David]

Beautiful!
No better or more detailed pictures in my part of the room i'm afraid. If you or some else has larger files i believe posting them would be appreciated.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Beautiful!
No better or more detailed pictures in my part of the room i'm afraid. If you or some else has larger files i believe posting them would be appreciated.

Haha, this kris is described in detail in the Krisdisk from Jensen (a precious picture reference for antique krisses) but subject to copyright.... You may see it upon your next trip to Vienna

[Jean]

Copy of the page in question in the Krisdisk

[David]

Thanks Jean.
In order to take my "next" trip to Vienna i would have to have already taken my FIRST trip to Vienna. LOL!

[Jean]

And this is my own kris, the antique blade was unfortunately broken and shortened while piercing the body of an enemy
It was repaired & treated in Solo, and the scabbard was recently made by copying an old model.
Regards

[Jean]

The blade in its original condition.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Update for 1st picture of post #63 above.

Best,

[Gustav]

As the sheath is a perfect fit for the blade, we can consider it to have been made for the Keris and thus original.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Gustav

As the sheath is a perfect fit for the blade, we can consider it to have been made for the Keris and thus original.

Hullo Gustav,
As you well know, during the life of a blade, it may undergo various changes of dress. When undergone properly, of course they should always fit ‘perfectly’.
By 'original', I mean as at the time it left the ‘original owner’. So I guess what you’re saying is that THAT particular sheath came with the blade when handed over by the then owner, back in 1521.
Thank you for your input.

Best,

[Gustav]

Hello Amuk Murugul,

of course this Keris did have at least one stopover in workshops run by portuguese in ther trading facilities or colonies, where the stones in the hilt were in set in a Ceilonese fashion, and possibly the Mendak was made. The style of overpainting of the sheath is associated with a Cochin workshop.

You surely were aware of this thread with more details on this:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...chordens+keris

But yes, I think the possibility this Keris originally came out of Java with this sheath is very high.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo again Gustav,

Here's another one I am sure you're familiar with.

Best of season's greetings!

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just thought I'd drop this one in. My take on these prevously-discussed objects. (Pardon the crypticism.)
May be of use to somebody.

Best,

[shadejoy]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo Jean,

I've changed the hilt for a 'more appropriate' one. Hope it's pleasing.
I've also attached pics of similar oversheaths from 18thC-early19thC. One was a present from Hamengkoeboewono.

Best,

Love the warangka ladrang you have (one from Hamengkoeboewono wow)! I had never seen pendok such as that before, it looks dignified.

Thank you very much for sharing your pusakas with us!

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by shadejoy

I had never seen pendok such as that before, it looks dignified.

Yeah I really them too. Then again I'm pretty partial to West Java/Sunda stuff.

Interestingly, this style of pendok can be seen in one of the earliest and detailed depictions of the keris we have in art.

Attached is Frans Francken the Younger's "The Cabinet of a Collector", 1617. A Dutch painter.

I know of at least one Sundanese wood carver/mranggi who is attempting to make this style of pendok for collectors of Sunda/West Javanese keris. It doesn't seem to be that common anymore.

[A. G. Maisey]

Candi Sukuh, Jawa Tengah, Circa 1440CE

[jagabuwana]

Alan - I'd like to confirm that what I'm seeing is correct because it's not so clear to my eyes.

Does the relief show a sheath that looks like a sandang walikat wrongko, and a pistol grip-shaped handle?

[A. G. Maisey]

Absolutely correct JB.

There is another relief carving in the same location and with same time & place of origin that shows this style of wrongko too, but the carving is not as clear as this one.

Across in East Jawa at Candi Panataran (Penataran), near Blitar, state temple of Majapahit, we can find a representation of a wrongko that is 100% Bugis.

When we get to digging a bit and looking at the old, original evidence we do sometimes find a few unusual things.

[A. G. Maisey]

Candi Panataran, State temple of Majapahit, about 1200AD to 1450AD