Shipping from Italy - Page 3

Jens Nordlunde · 13th October 2019, 04:36 PM

Philip, what you write about the Richard Wagner Jr. collection is very interesting. I have a khanjarli with ivory hilt from the collection, and I have often been wondering why some daggers with ivory were sold in the US and others were sent to the UK to be sold. Now I know why.
In an art magazine I saw pictures of the stripped daggers, and it was quite chocking to see the daggers - good that Richard Wagner never knew about it.

To all others, dont fool with the CITES certificate - if it is needed, get it or you can be in big trouble.

Richard G · 14th October 2019, 03:34 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422

Hope this works
Richard

Jens Nordlunde · 15th October 2019, 05:21 PM

Richard, thank you for the link - it is chocking, and it is a chock any collector will not forget easily.
I dont understand how an auctionhouse can send daggers like this, to another country whitout the needed papers, or maybe we dont know the whole history, who knows?
In post #121 it seems as if the daggers were stripped in the UK.

Has anyone asked the MET or one of the big auctionhouses what they would do to avoid daggers to be stripped? If not, it might be time to do so.

To get a CITES certificate, the weapon has to be evaluated by a specialist known to the CITES people, and accepted by them as being an expert.
Maybe the CITES people can give you a list of experts living 'near' to where you live.

The recievers name and address are on the document, and only the reciever must get the parcle - the document is valid for half a year.

vilhelmsson · 15th October 2019, 07:46 PM

Here's a guide for museums on the care and documentation, including proper shipping practices, of ivory antiquities: http://www.connectingtocollections.o...int-Slides.pdf

In my discussions with US Fish & Wildlife, importing pre-Act ivory should go smoothly, but there are a few pitfalls. He said that the most common pitfall is pre-export permit validation. For example, if you're importing ivory from the UK to the US, you must have the UK customs authority validate the permit and sign off on the export. If it arrives in the US with all of the proper documentation, etc., but the permit was not validated, then it will be treated as an unpermitted import.

Sounds like a common sense step, but it is frequently missed.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th October 2019, 10:54 PM

Vilhelmsson, I find your link interesting, but not very helpful, as what the members need is, a way to find the experts who can descripe the weapon/whatever so that the CITES people can/will accept it - and make the certificate.

vilhelmsson · 15th October 2019, 11:29 PM

Jens,

The actual guidelines are very non-specific, but that pdf will point you in the right direction. They need a "qualified appraisal." Each country can interpret that differently. There is no centralized list of "qualified appraisers" in the US. And the US government certainly won't publish a list of qualified appraisers.

I would bet like $100 if you call the Alaska US F&W office and ask about ivory importation, they'd transfer you to someone who would give you the names of some good qualified appraisers.

If you are exporting from or importing to the US, here are the guidelines for what a qualified appraisal is:

An appraisal submitted as documentary evidence of an article’s eligibility under the ESA antique exception must meet the following criteria:

* The person executing the appraisal either has earned an appraisal designation from a recognized professional appraiser organization for demonstrated competency in appraising the type of property being appraised or can demonstrate verifiable education and experience in assessing the type of property being appraised.

* The person executing the appraisal is not the importer, exporter, buyer, recipient or seller of the article; does not benefit from the results of the appraisal (other than for the cost of the appraisal); is not a party to any of the transactions associated with the article (including any person acting as an agent for the transaction); is not an employee of any business that is a party to the transaction; and is not related to the person claiming the exception.

* Facts we will examine in determining the reliability of the appraisal:
1. A description of the article in sufficient detail for a person who is not generally familiar with the type of article to determine that the appraisal is about the article in question.

2. The name and address of the qualified appraiser; or if the appraiser is a partner, an employee, or an independent contractor engaged by a person other than the person claiming the exception, the name and address of the partnership or the person who employs or engages the appraiser.

3. The qualifications of the appraiser who signs the appraisal, including the background, experience, education and any membership in professional appraiser associations.

4. The date on which the article was appraised.

5. The scientific method in detail used to determine the age or species.
Descriptive information on the article including but not limited to: the size of the article; the medium; the artist or culture; approximate date the article was created; and a professional quality image of the article.

6. A detailed history of the article including proof of authenticity.
The facts on which the appraisal was based including analyses of similar works by the artist on or around the creation date.

Jens Nordlunde · 16th October 2019, 02:22 PM

Thank you for the explanation Vilhelmsson.
It all sounds very complicated, and I do see the problem.
I guess I was lucky to get a certificate, when my dagger from the Wagner collection was transported from the UK to where I live.

Dmitry · 12th May 2021, 04:32 PM

One London-based auction house now states in plain English in their descriptions of every ivory-containing lot that they will not accept bids from US-based buyers due to the current American regulations.
I'm glad the world elephant population is breathing in unison'ed relief knowing that.

Kurt · 12th May 2021, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

One London-based auction house now states in plain English in their descriptions of every ivory-containing lot that they will not accept bids from US-based buyers due to the current American regulations.
I'm glad the world elephant population is breathing in unison'ed relief knowing that.

Hi Dimitry,
good answer, I absolutely agree.
Kurt

Philip · 12th May 2021, 06:13 PM

Oh, those ellyfunts should be trumpeting for joy!

gp · 13th May 2021, 04:21 PM

shipping nowadays is always a most interesting journey..
ex the good ol' U S of A :

DHL took me 4 days to NL ( yep ...I am a Cloggy

) for $140 USD for a small Ottoman antique 19th C dagger ( and no import duties charged....

)
value from auction was $100.. actual or real value should be $ 250-300

USPS with their local partner Post.NL again value $100 for a Bosnian dagger from 1860, actual value around 400 - 450, shipping $ 80 .... 4 monnths....with Euro 35 import duties, delivering it together wit a small yacht window ( whose owner was also waiting for 3=4 months on it from a complete different part of Holland) ....

Austrian Post uses Eurodis as intermediate to the Dutch Post.NL and ships for € 18 : 9 times all OK, one time my dagger was lost and on its way back to sender due to incorrect address. The sender made no mistake but all the intermediates put their labels over the original address. Even after contacting all callcenters of 3 involved companies it took 3 months to get my package found an delivered. Terrible... although all other 9 Austrian shipments went OK.

My recent experience :

a book on cold weapons from Bosnia: purchase price 60, DHL ( being the only option) 30....upon arrival ( 3 days !!! Very fast indeed, the same it took me by motorbike or train to Sarajevo...) I had to pay 17 import duties and....18 handling costs....the last 2 amounts did feel like a ripp off

a klewang ( purchase value $ 75, actual 150)from the US again: $ 35 by USPS: 2 weeks and no import duties....

you tell me ... what's going on?

Sometimes I think they are using the donkey express or the Kon-Tiki whilst other times they are performing excellently.

Nevertheless the scare me sh-beep-tless when it takes more than 1 month

As for description of auction houses: they are not sure anymore, so also bone or horn are lots of times described as Citesitems, whilst they come / are made from local oxes in the Balkans...and the only endangered specie is the collector who is been taken for a ride.... sadly. Thumbs up nevertheless yeh all

Dmitry · 19th May 2021, 04:36 PM

An interesting tidbit on the BBC ANTIQUES ROADSHOW FAQ page:

Can I bring ivory to Antiques Roadshow?
At the end of 2018, the UK government’s Ivory Bill gained Royal Assent to become law.

Further information on the detail and scope of the legislation can be found here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...vory-bill-2018

Please note that Antiques Roadshow no longer values items of antique elephant ivory.

However, our experts may be able to examine your items and offer guidance about the new legislation.

That takes care of the broad swath of world antiques, from the Viking period chess figures, to middle ages decorative objects, to 19th century musical instruments, to the 20th century jewelry.

Rick · 19th May 2021, 06:34 PM

I wonder how they feel about fossil ivorys, elephant and mammoth? Many knifemakers in the US use this and fossil walrus, Steller's Sea Cow ribs etc. for knife scales.

I hate it when they make these one-size-fits-all laws.

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2021, 06:40 PM

Hippo ivory is still legal? Just as nice?

Tim Simmons · 19th May 2021, 06:42 PM

Seems hippo is banned too. I can understand the desire to break the market but how many countries will still be a back door market so the killing will still go on.

Philip · 19th May 2021, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

, Steller's Sea Cow ribs

Stellar sea cow? Haven’t heard about that before. Do those ribs taste good off the BBQ grill too? I love the dual-use concept.

Rick · 19th May 2021, 08:40 PM

You'd have to go back in time to BBQ one Philip; they're extinct and anyway who wants leftovers that old.
The fossilized material is is gathered by the indigenous peoples of the Bering Sea area along with fossilized Walrus and is used for carvings, knife scales etc.

This bear was carved from a fossilized Walrus jaw.

Philip · 19th May 2021, 08:56 PM

[QUOTE=Rick;262771]You'd have to go back in time to BBQ one Philip; they're extinct and anyway who wants leftovers that old.
The /QUOTE]

I once read somewhere that Russian paleontologists once dig up a mammoth from the permafrost and there was still that ol’ellyfunt meat still clinging to some bones. They made a broth out of some of the tissue. Don’t recall seeing their reaction to the flavor, would have been interesting if they could salvage enough meat to make at least a couple sibirsky pel’menyi to cook in the soup. Leftovers that old? Compared to some of the food I had during a trip to Gorbyland in 1986 , how bad could that be?

13th May 2021, 04:21 PM	#71
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 775	shipping nowadays is always a most interesting journey.. ex the good ol' U S of A : DHL took me 4 days to NL ( yep ...I am a Cloggy) for $140 USD for a small Ottoman antique 19th C dagger ( and no import duties charged....) value from auction was $100.. actual or real value should be $ 250-300 USPS with their local partner Post.NL again value $100 for a Bosnian dagger from 1860, actual value around 400 - 450, shipping $ 80 .... 4 monnths....with Euro 35 import duties, delivering it together wit a small yacht window ( whose owner was also waiting for 3=4 months on it from a complete different part of Holland) .... Austrian Post uses Eurodis as intermediate to the Dutch Post.NL and ships for € 18 : 9 times all OK, one time my dagger was lost and on its way back to sender due to incorrect address. The sender made no mistake but all the intermediates put their labels over the original address. Even after contacting all callcenters of 3 involved companies it took 3 months to get my package found an delivered. Terrible... although all other 9 Austrian shipments went OK. My recent experience : a book on cold weapons from Bosnia: purchase price 60, DHL ( being the only option) 30....upon arrival ( 3 days !!! Very fast indeed, the same it took me by motorbike or train to Sarajevo...) I had to pay 17 import duties and....18 handling costs....the last 2 amounts did feel like a ripp off a klewang ( purchase value $ 75, actual 150)from the US again: $ 35 by USPS: 2 weeks and no import duties.... you tell me ... what's going on? Sometimes I think they are using the donkey express or the Kon-Tiki whilst other times they are performing excellently. Nevertheless the scare me sh-beep-tless when it takes more than 1 month As for description of auction houses: they are not sure anymore, so also bone or horn are lots of times described as Citesitems, whilst they come / are made from local oxes in the Balkans...and the only endangered specie is the collector who is been taken for a ride.... sadly. Thumbs up nevertheless yeh all Last edited by gp; 13th May 2021 at 06:16 PM.

19th May 2021, 08:40 PM	#77
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	You'd have to go back in time to BBQ one Philip; they're extinct and anyway who wants leftovers that old. The fossilized material is is gathered by the indigenous peoples of the Bering Sea area along with fossilized Walrus and is used for carvings, knife scales etc. This bear was carved from a fossilized Walrus jaw. Attached Images

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13th October 2019, 04:36 PM	#61
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Philip, what you write about the Richard Wagner Jr. collection is very interesting. I have a khanjarli with ivory hilt from the collection, and I have often been wondering why some daggers with ivory were sold in the US and others were sent to the UK to be sold. Now I know why. In an art magazine I saw pictures of the stripped daggers, and it was quite chocking to see the daggers - good that Richard Wagner never knew about it. To all others, dont fool with the CITES certificate - if it is needed, get it or you can be in big trouble.

14th October 2019, 03:34 PM	#62
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21422 Hope this works Richard

15th October 2019, 05:21 PM	#63
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Richard, thank you for the link - it is chocking, and it is a chock any collector will not forget easily. I dont understand how an auctionhouse can send daggers like this, to another country whitout the needed papers, or maybe we dont know the whole history, who knows? In post #121 it seems as if the daggers were stripped in the UK. Has anyone asked the MET or one of the big auctionhouses what they would do to avoid daggers to be stripped? If not, it might be time to do so. To get a CITES certificate, the weapon has to be evaluated by a specialist known to the CITES people, and accepted by them as being an expert. Maybe the CITES people can give you a list of experts living 'near' to where you live. The recievers name and address are on the document, and only the reciever must get the parcle - the document is valid for half a year.

15th October 2019, 07:46 PM	#64
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Here's a guide for museums on the care and documentation, including proper shipping practices, of ivory antiquities: http://www.connectingtocollections.o...int-Slides.pdf In my discussions with US Fish & Wildlife, importing pre-Act ivory should go smoothly, but there are a few pitfalls. He said that the most common pitfall is pre-export permit validation. For example, if you're importing ivory from the UK to the US, you must have the UK customs authority validate the permit and sign off on the export. If it arrives in the US with all of the proper documentation, etc., but the permit was not validated, then it will be treated as an unpermitted import. Sounds like a common sense step, but it is frequently missed.

15th October 2019, 10:54 PM	#65
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Vilhelmsson, I find your link interesting, but not very helpful, as what the members need is, a way to find the experts who can descripe the weapon/whatever so that the CITES people can/will accept it - and make the certificate.

15th October 2019, 11:29 PM	#66
vilhelmsson Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Bay Area Posts: 57	Jens, The actual guidelines are very non-specific, but that pdf will point you in the right direction. They need a "qualified appraisal." Each country can interpret that differently. There is no centralized list of "qualified appraisers" in the US. And the US government certainly won't publish a list of qualified appraisers. I would bet like $100 if you call the Alaska US F&W office and ask about ivory importation, they'd transfer you to someone who would give you the names of some good qualified appraisers. If you are exporting from or importing to the US, here are the guidelines for what a qualified appraisal is: An appraisal submitted as documentary evidence of an article’s eligibility under the ESA antique exception must meet the following criteria: * The person executing the appraisal either has earned an appraisal designation from a recognized professional appraiser organization for demonstrated competency in appraising the type of property being appraised or can demonstrate verifiable education and experience in assessing the type of property being appraised. * The person executing the appraisal is not the importer, exporter, buyer, recipient or seller of the article; does not benefit from the results of the appraisal (other than for the cost of the appraisal); is not a party to any of the transactions associated with the article (including any person acting as an agent for the transaction); is not an employee of any business that is a party to the transaction; and is not related to the person claiming the exception. * Facts we will examine in determining the reliability of the appraisal: 1. A description of the article in sufficient detail for a person who is not generally familiar with the type of article to determine that the appraisal is about the article in question. 2. The name and address of the qualified appraiser; or if the appraiser is a partner, an employee, or an independent contractor engaged by a person other than the person claiming the exception, the name and address of the partnership or the person who employs or engages the appraiser. 3. The qualifications of the appraiser who signs the appraisal, including the background, experience, education and any membership in professional appraiser associations. 4. The date on which the article was appraised. 5. The scientific method in detail used to determine the age or species. Descriptive information on the article including but not limited to: the size of the article; the medium; the artist or culture; approximate date the article was created; and a professional quality image of the article. 6. A detailed history of the article including proof of authenticity. The facts on which the appraisal was based including analyses of similar works by the artist on or around the creation date.

16th October 2019, 02:22 PM	#67
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for the explanation Vilhelmsson. It all sounds very complicated, and I do see the problem. I guess I was lucky to get a certificate, when my dagger from the Wagner collection was transported from the UK to where I live.

12th May 2021, 04:32 PM	#68
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	One London-based auction house now states in plain English in their descriptions of every ivory-containing lot that they will not accept bids from US-based buyers due to the current American regulations. I'm glad the world elephant population is breathing in unison'ed relief knowing that.

12th May 2021, 06:13 PM	#70
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Oh, those ellyfunts should be trumpeting for joy!

19th May 2021, 04:36 PM	#72
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	An interesting tidbit on the BBC ANTIQUES ROADSHOW FAQ page: Can I bring ivory to Antiques Roadshow? At the end of 2018, the UK government’s Ivory Bill gained Royal Assent to become law. Further information on the detail and scope of the legislation can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...vory-bill-2018 Please note that Antiques Roadshow no longer values items of antique elephant ivory. However, our experts may be able to examine your items and offer guidance about the new legislation. That takes care of the broad swath of world antiques, from the Viking period chess figures, to middle ages decorative objects, to 19th century musical instruments, to the 20th century jewelry.

19th May 2021, 06:34 PM	#73
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	I wonder how they feel about fossil ivorys, elephant and mammoth? Many knifemakers in the US use this and fossil walrus, Steller's Sea Cow ribs etc. for knife scales. I hate it when they make these one-size-fits-all laws.

19th May 2021, 06:40 PM	#74
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,812	Hippo ivory is still legal? Just as nice?

19th May 2021, 06:42 PM	#75
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,812	Seems hippo is banned too. I can understand the desire to break the market but how many countries will still be a back door market so the killing will still go on.

19th May 2021, 08:56 PM	#78
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	[QUOTE=Rick;262771]You'd have to go back in time to BBQ one Philip; they're extinct and anyway who wants leftovers that old. The /QUOTE] I once read somewhere that Russian paleontologists once dig up a mammoth from the permafrost and there was still that ol’ellyfunt meat still clinging to some bones. They made a broth out of some of the tissue. Don’t recall seeing their reaction to the flavor, would have been interesting if they could salvage enough meat to make at least a couple sibirsky pel’menyi to cook in the soup. Leftovers that old? Compared to some of the food I had during a trip to Gorbyland in 1986 , how bad could that be?