Takouba with a 16th century blade?

[Marc M.]

This takouba came in yesterday. bought from a French antique dealer with 40 years of experience in mostly Euopean swords, etc. According to him, this is a 16th century blade from Germany, Solingen. To my question from where do you deduce that:The dimensions, structure of the steel, a nervous/ flex blade, the 3 fullers and the marks is to him representative of the 16th century.I have zero experience with 16th century blades and only limited experience with takouba's, but found that this blade is standard European, 19th century, early 20th. What particularly attracted me was that the blade had lived. Many decades of use, sharpening and cleaning shaped the blade as it is today. It has a good flex, the dukari marks are almost gone on one side, other side still fairly visible and of a good quality, maybe European. handle, crossguard and pommel look old to me but rather 20th century. Hopefully Iain will pick up this post as in 2010 he posted, a big happy takouba family, a takouba along with a few others very similar to mine. At first I thought it was the sword I bought but still found some differences. Iain's sword has not been discussed so maybe this can be done now, should it still be in his possession.
Regards
Marc

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Marc M.

This takouba came in yesterday. bought from a French antique dealer with 40 years of experience in mostly Euopean swords, etc. According to him, this is a 16th century blade from Germany, Solingen. To my question from where do you deduce that:The dimensions, structure of the steel, a nervous/ flex blade, the 3 fullers and the marks is to him representative of the 16th century.I have zero experience with 16th century blades and only limited experience with takouba's, but found that this blade is standard European, 19th century, early 20th. What particularly attracted me was that the blade had lived. Many decades of use, sharpening and cleaning shaped the blade as it is today. It has a good flex, the dukari marks are almost gone on one side, other side still fairly visible and of a good quality, maybe European. handle, crossguard and pommel look old to me but rather 20th century. Hopefully Iain will pick up this post as in 2010 he posted, a big happy takouba family, a takouba along with a few others very similar to mine. At first I thought it was the sword I bought but still found some differences. Iain's sword has not been discussed so maybe this can be done now, should it still be in his possession.
Regards
Marc

Afraid I don't have any takouba any more!

Yes, its the same blade pattern and I would normally assume 18th century at best. I don't see anything 16th century about it. The moons are cold stamped, meaning it was done after the forging process and I suspect these were often applied outside of Europe.

[Marc M.]

Hi Iain
IK didn't see anything that would be 16th century either, but have no experience with it. I haven't seen this wear much outside of your ex specimen. Glad to see such a lived specimen, seen a lot of raids probably.
Regards
Marc

[Jim McDougall]

As Iain has well noted, this blade might tenuously be late 18th c. and really nothing that distinguishes it as European.
The descriptive term the dealer might have prudently used is 'of the style' of many 16th century and later blades. In the defense of many dealers, many of them actually believe this, some conveniently overlook it.

As Iain notes also, those twin moons (dukari) were invariably stamped on the native made blades that were apparently termed 'masri' and used throughout the Sahara on takouba. This example I think is a brilliant example as it was clearly long in circulation as seen by the wavering edges reflecting the rough sharpening with stones in the desert.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Iain has well noted, this blade might tenuously be late 18th c. and really nothing that distinguishes it as European.
The descriptive term the dealer might have prudently used is 'of the style' of many 16th century and later blades. In the defense of many dealers, many of them actually believe this, some conveniently overlook it.

As Iain notes also, those twin moons (dukari) were invariably stamped on the native made blades that were apparently termed 'masri' and used throughout the Sahara on takouba. This example I think is a brilliant example as it was clearly long in circulation as seen by the wavering edges reflecting the rough sharpening with stones in the desert.

Well noted Jim, the issue I think is that this triple fuller pattern blade was in existence in the European context for several centuries as well as widely copied abroad. This blade may well be European, even if the marks are somewhat spurious.

I don't have the swords anymore but I still have something of an image archive left from the 'takouba years' and this is one that I would consider has actual European half moons potentially. The difference is quite evident I would say.

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Iain

Well noted Jim, the issue I think is that this triple fuller pattern blade was in existence in the European context for several centuries as well as widely copied abroad. This blade may well be European, even if the marks are somewhat spurious.

I don't have the swords anymore but I still have something of an image archive left from the 'takouba years' and this is one that I would consider has actual European half moons potentially. The difference is quite evident I would say.

Markings on takoubas have been discussed at length on the forum, especially the dukari. We have no indication of how many lemmets were imported from Europe to North Africa in recent centuries, but may assume tens of thousands. We also know that not every blade entering North Africa had a mark. That they were in by traders often provided locally with an imitation mark is known.
It becomes difficult when those dealers possess stamps made in Europe. What I wonder is if a European dealer to get more of his blades applied markings himself.
Seems to me a gray area to place marks of a high quality. The often locally applied markings are usually clearly identifiable.
Regards
Marc

[Marc M.]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Iain has well noted, this blade might tenuously be late 18th c. and really nothing that distinguishes it as European.
The descriptive term the dealer might have prudently used is 'of the style' of many 16th century and later blades. In the defense of many dealers, many of them actually believe this, some conveniently overlook it.

As Iain notes also, those twin moons (dukari) were invariably stamped on the native made blades that were apparently termed 'masri' and used throughout the Sahara on takouba. This example I think is a brilliant example as it was clearly long in circulation as seen by the wavering edges reflecting the rough sharpening with stones in the desert.

Hi Jim
Dealers and collectors with many years of experience on the counter like to throw some weight around when it comes to their expertise. I buy most objects online, good pictures are essential to make an assessment, sometimes you take a gamble. Occasionally things go wrong but usually things turn out well. Discourse at a distance has its limitations, often descriptions are incomplete and even totally wrong. If you see the potential of the object with a faulty description you can buy it for a modest price, The other way around also happens, of course.
So too with this takouba. I did not pay a 16th century price but rather 20th century. This indicates to me that the 16th century allocation was not realistic.
It remains a challenge to date these fascinating objects over time.
Regards
Marc