Karabela european?

[serdar]

I acquired a karabela sword from collection of one old collector, he described this sword like “turkish karabela 17. Century”.

What i can see is an old blade, wery high quality blade, with very good toughnes, and high quality of steel, blade that se lot of usage. Blade is similar to the shamshir blade, but it is not a shamshir blade, profile is diferent, and diferently angled, allso it has a markings on a both sides, something that resembles a crowns? Maybe?
And a 5 star mark that forms a cross, that is obstructed by the langets of crossguard but i tried to capture on photo.
Those stars i have on two more swords that i know 100% are genova made and from 15 century.
And i saw similar stars on mostly genova made blades.

Handle is replacement, but an old replacement maybe 17/18 century.

If someone has seen this type of blade, or those markings, or has some valid info, please do share.
Thank you.

[awdaniec666]

I do not know about those markings but I can offer you my opinion on that sword.

The certainly old blade looks odd, I would rule out a classical Central European origin. I would re-evaluate a Persian origin.

The crossguard looks original at first glance. Similar can be found on 17th century Polish and Ottoman Karabelas alike.

The grip, while looking old, is not a typical Karabela hilt.
The star formed brass plates at the peens are not original, those edges would have caused wounds on the wielders hands. It may seem like not a problem when holding the sword calmly, but even the slightest edges irritate the skin after few minutes of movement - think about this like a stone in your shoe while walking.
In theory it is imaginable that the wood plates themselves are the product of someone in the 17/18th century who was barely familiar with Karabela hilts. But it´s very far from the known types. I say this as someone who opposes discarding artifacts solely by style.

In my opinion this likely a put together sword with an old blade and crossguard with a new (amateur made) grip.
Unlikely, but thinkable, it´s a very odd original sabre with useless later restored peens.
Termnologically I wouldn´t call it a Karabela although it certainly approaches that design.

[Jim McDougall]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27238

I totally agree, and linked this thread from 2021 where the comprehensive material reflects the foundation of the assessment.
It seems there has long been a certain cottage industry for creating traditional Polish swords for collectors and interested persons, as there is of course a notable shortage of genuine examples.
I have seen instances of 'karabelas' (with the familiar type hilts) mounted in newly made hilts, and on occasion using old guards and blades.

As noted this blade is a characteristic Persian shamshir blade, probably 18thc.
The karabela was of course much admired by the Poles, and became copied to the point often it is regarded by some literature as the 'national Polish sword'.
Old karabela it seems typically used saber blades rather than the thinner more parabolic shamshir blades.

As always, there must have been exceptions to individual cases.

[serdar]

As i wrote in my text folowing pictures, this definetly 100% isnt persian blade, i have extensive collection of persian blades, and i handled almost five hundred diferent persian blades, this is not persian.

It is 100% european, markings are important, im looking for someone that has seen this exact markings and have them maybe in archives.

Regardin a handle, handle isnt original, it is replacement, and a old replacement, used very much, about rivets, they are embeded into the wood, they definetly dont hurt your hand in any way, you cant even feel them.

It is very dificult to say something about item from pictures, i know that and that is a reason i wrote if someone knows something about markings, and not in the way “i think, it seems”, but definite knowledge.

In that text linked about karabelas there is a mountain of nonsence, and wrong things writen.
I allso saw a lot of “experts” write something off or on and they have no clue and no explenation backed with something material, that is a reason i asked if someone has seen identical markings.

Soo once more, please only if someone has seen -IDENTICAL- markings i would be grateful if he would share where and maybe data.
I suspect on something, but without data it dosent count.

Thanx.
-

[serdar]

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

[awdaniec666]

When you try to be polite and positive...

So here is no "I think" or "It seems":

This thing is ugly as hell and please stop insulting Polish sabres with this piece of experimental art.

I am gone here.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by serdar

Thank you anyway on your opinion.

I appreciate that. I also appreciate your opinion on the material I attached concerning the karabela. Clearly you have notable expertise on this topic, and I would encourage you to specifically share notes correcting the elements you consider nonsense, so the rest of us might learn. That is after all the objective here, and no matter how much we know, learning never stops.

Perhaps I might have more carefully worded my comments. The blade is of shamshir 'style' to my view, though Im sure saying that would be heresy to 'experts' on these blades. Obviously European, and at end of 18th century into early 19th the popularity of hussar cavalry units brought imitation of fashion and arms into European armies.

There were of course European makers who adopted various Eastern blade features and styles (i.e. the yelman) and some British cavalry swords are seen with these. In the Napoleonic campaigns, even yataghan 'style' blades have been noted on officers sabers.

I like your comment, 'markings are important' ! In the study of historic swords they are a key factor, which is why I have seriously studied this topic for many years, but I am NO expert by far.
One thing I have learned in the subject is that there are many complications, the numbers of spuriously applied marks etc. not withstanding.
There are many variations brought by many reasons, especially with families of makers who continued the profession through generations. Many marks had other meanings whether administrative or even talismanic.

So finding IDENTICAL markings can happen in many cases, but more often there are variations, sometimes as stamps wore out or were changed due to administrative situations.

Here is what I found as far as the 'stars' on the blade you show, and may not be identical, but a compelling suggestion to the possible European maker in this case Solingen late 18th c.

The two cavalry sabers are British using Solingen blades which have Eastern CHARACTERIZED features n them.

Again, hoping to be helpful, just as was awdanie666. Courtesy is also important. DEFINITE knowledge is VERY much a matter of opinion.

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=serdar;295201]I acquired a karabela sword from collection of one old collector, he described this sword like “turkish karabela 17. Century”.

What i can see is an old blade, wery high quality blade, with very good toughnes, and high quality of steel, blade that se lot of usage. Blade is similar to the shamshir blade, but it is not a shamshir blade, profile is diferent, and diferently angled, allso it has a markings on a both sides, something that resembles a crowns? Maybe?
And a 5 star mark that forms a cross, that is obstructed by the langets of crossguard but i tried to capture on photo.
Those stars i have on two more swords that i know 100% are genova made and from 15 century.
And i saw similar stars on mostly genova made blades.

Handle is replacement, but an old replacement maybe 17/18 century.













I thought perhaps responding directly to this original post best, as clearly discussion is not possible and what is sought is a direct answer, no less.

As far as can be found thus far, no IDENTICAL cross configuration of these stars can compare. It is noted that these star stamps are seen on various north Italian blades. As far as known, like many such markings on blades, these are not directly associated to certain makers, though on occasions they do occur with actual makers punzone.
There are of course speculations but it is dangerous to cite them at the risk of academic ire.

However I have found support for the fact that this MAY well be a SHAMSHIR LIKE blade of early 16th century from Italy. ...
A scimitar dated 1618 (Wallace Coll. , Mann, 1962, A713, p.363) shown from Italy.

In Mann (op.cit.p.361) it is noted:
:...this scimitar is an example of mingling of European and Asiatic styles in Venice".

It may be presumed that this practice likely existed prior to this and did not suddenly occur one day in 1618. Thus, it is quite possible that this shamshir like blade might be this early, made in Italy, thus marked using the same type stars in a locally peculiar configuration.......temptingly in accord with the Jerusalem cross.

The entire 'karabela' attribution is irrelevant and the present hilt on the blade appears much later addition, and cannot be properly or forensically classified from photos and physical handling. Thus, this hilt resembling karabela types does not necessarily bear on the identification of the blade (nor for that matter the guard).

I hope these comments might be perceived as objectively presented and my opinions are in accord.