Two Kilij for comments

[ASPaulding]

These are the first Kilijs I have ever collected. They are quite diffrent. The larger one is much heavier then the other. I think the blade is a trade blade based on the eye lash mark. The cross gaurds are similar and the grips may be rhino horn? But the quality of the blades are much diffrent. The smaller one seems to be superior. I can not translate the inscription but the way it feels is dramatically diffrent then the larger blade. Please give any opinion you may have. Thanks

[ASPaulding]

A few more photos.

[ASPaulding]

I'm assuming they are from the same time frame. 19th century maybe. My question is the hilts Rhino or Buffalo horn. Also can anybody translate it for me.

[werecow]

Beautiful swords. Interesting that they handle so differently though. It looks like the larger one has a much less pronounced T-section.

A nice Ottoman kilij is at the top of my non-western-European sword wishlist but so far I have not managed to spot one near my price range. One day, though.

In the mean time I have a little (77cm) sword from Georgia with a kilij blade, which I suspect is a fake (picture attached for reference). But either way, it is lovely in the hand even though the balance is almost 20cm from the grip. I lack good scales but it weighs only about 600gr. When I received it it was packaged in styrofoam and the package felt so light compared to what I was expecting that for a second I thought I accidentally bought a miniature or a plastic sword.

Since this is the only kilij-bladed sword I've ever handled, I'm very curious if it resembles the real ones in terms of weight and balance. Can you post some stats on the length, blade thickness, weight and POB of both swords?

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by werecow

Beautiful swords. Interesting that they handle so differently though. It looks like the larger one has a much less pronounced T-section.

A nice Ottoman kilij is at the top of my non-western-European sword wishlist but so far I have not managed to spot one near my price range. One day, though.

In the mean time I have a little (77cm) sword from Georgia with a kilij blade, which I suspect is a fake (picture attached for reference). But either way, it is lovely in the hand even though the balance is almost 20cm from the grip. I lack good scales but it weighs only about 600gr. When I received it it was packaged in styrofoam and the package felt so light compared to what I was expecting that for a second I thought I accidentally bought a miniature or a plastic sword.

Since this is the only kilij-bladed sword I've ever handled, I'm very curious if it resembles the real ones in terms of weight and balance. Can you post some stats on the length, blade thickness, weight and POB of both swords?

I posted photos of the measurements. I have never done point of balance before but I'm assuming use your finger and balance it then measure from the gaurd. So the small one is approximately POB 10cm at 648 grams and the larger one is POB 14.5cm at 1430 grams.

[ASPaulding]

Your Kilij blade does not look like a fake to me.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ASPaulding

Your Kilij blade does not look like a fake to me.

I'm not entirely sure whether it is, but there are some things about it that give me pause:

First of all, I bought it off of ebay when I first started collecting. I've never found another sword with Georgian mounts with a kilij blade since then, and I've only ever seen swords with grips that look like it on ebay (i.e.: same style of very simple leather grip wrap, same style of crossguard with the same decorations). The crossguard and pommel have a very different surface texture to it than any other sword I own, and it also sounds different if I tap on it with my fingernails (at first I thought it might be made out of something other than steel, but it rusts).
And it has etchings on it on each side that look kind of washed out, but the bluing is still there, which is weird as it wears away easily (as shown by a bit at the start of the yelman in the last picture that I accidentally rubbed away a bit when cleaning off a small red rust spot when I first got it EDIT: Actually, the first pic I posted was the seller's, and it seems that spot was already rubbed away, so maybe I'm mistaken). In other words it looks kind of like the etchings were made to look worn, if that makes sense. And speaking generally I've never seen an pala blade that was blued before (although the naval markings may explain that oddity).

And having looked through Rivkin's Arms and Armor of Caucasus I did not come across anything that looked quite like it.

But I am still a bit of a novice at collecting, so I can't say for sure.

[werecow]

Thanks!

That's quite a substantial weight difference for such similar looking swords. The length difference can't account for all of that so I guess that implies that the longer one is also significantly thicker (aside from the T-section at the back)?

My knowledge is still somewhat lacking but IIRC the earlier ones are generally longer than the more recent ones, so aside from the handling characteristics there may also be an age difference between them.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by werecow

Thanks!

That's quite a substantial weight difference for such similar looking swords. The length difference can't account for all of that so I guess that implies that the longer one is also significantly thicker (aside from the T-section at the back)?

My knowledge is still somewhat lacking but IIRC the earlier ones are generally longer than the more recent ones, so aside from the handling characteristics there may also be an age difference between them.

Also I believe there is a significant length difference between a Kilij vs Pala Kilij. I have seen a few examples of the Pala versions in the shorter length. I definitely have a lack of knowledge thou.

[serdar]

[QUOTE=ASPaulding;276364]


Translate of that kilij cartouche: Owner and possessor Jusuf year 1264 hijri.
There is a word before Jusuf but is not clear.

You have two nice kilij’s.


The one with text is from mid 19 century.

But other one blade maybe is not a kilij blade (it is kilij sword, but maybe blade is european and reshaped, but i looked closely it doesent seem to be reshaped), im not sure, neither would be possible to conclude from pictures, no one can do that, but to me it looks like older blade, that profile is not a T like on other but more shalow fuller fat back one, and there is a eye lash mark, but i dont know, to me it looks like older blade, but that can be determined only when you take the sword in hands.

But other thing, why everyone in europe adress to 19 century kilij as a pala?
I have come in contact with two types of something that is called a pala.
In balkan, in Montenegro turkish armies were readily defeated over the course of centuries, and there is a lot of ottoman weapons as a consecuence, in montenegro there is a sword with yatagan look but has no ears and has a straight blade, i have specimens from my family that are one from 17 century and other from 18 century, im fortunate to have two examples, as they are extremly rare.

Other type of pala is a sword like a karabela but it isnt, it has a karabela like handle or a pistol like handle, crossguard is bent to the blade, and blade is little shorter but more straight and wide, there are two examples in montenegro museums, they are very very rare.

Those two are only “pala” swords that are in old books from balkan, by old books i mean manuacripts with drawings from 18/19 century, from the people that witnessed battles and participated in them.

In balkan, pala swords are called gadara, it means a nasty thing, i dont know if it comes from persian gaddare, but some swords do look like ottoman version of gaddare.

Allso there is a drawing of Montenegro pala sword in bosnian book from vejsil curcic.

My picture in the midle ottoman pala sword captured in montenegro begining of 18 century, right to it ottoman naval yatagan sword allso montenegro begining of 18 century, left is a yatagan sword also from montenegro end of 18 century from battle.

Picture of pala swords from web.