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Old 11th April 2012, 04:54 AM #230
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Absolutely brilliant research Ibrahiim!!! Now thats what Im talkin' about! The mysterious (better described as devious) Hollow Sword Blade Co. was written about in some degree by J.D.Aylward in 1948 and in 1962. Apparantly the fanciful notion of these mercury filled blades (as described in an 1859 journal entry) was noted in analogy in a poem by Henry More in 1647 describing 'running quicksilver' in the back of a sword. It seems that from here the idea of increasing impetus in thrust or cut with either this unlikely channeled liquid metal or moving weight sliding on a rod entered popular culture via Sir Walter Scott, and subsequent authors. These concepts reappeared in the imaginations of 19th century writers, especially in America with the Bowie knife phenomenon and the novel "The Iron Mistress" which many people perceived as factual history of Bowie's knife. The 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' name I believe has become loosely associated to the enterprises at Hounslow Heath in the early to latter mid 17th century and the German smiths who worked there. The shops there were largely closed by the late 1660s with most of the makers leaving. I think what is most puzzling is that during the English civil wars and later in conflicts in Ireland there are references to a 'Hollow Sword Co.' which made swords for all sides, and often received payment in lieu of currency with forfeited estates in Ireland. After 1700 they began realizing profits by selling off these estates. Yet other references claim that the Hollow Sword Blade Company was started around 1690, and another reference describes the firm being started by Hermann Mohll nearly Shotley Bridge (near Newcastle). Mohll ran afoul of the law in 1703 when he was caught bringing in illegally imported German blades. These were probably the 'hollow ground' blades favored for the smallswords becoming popular, which were already partially complete and finished there at Shotley Bridge. It would seem quite possible that the term may have been misperceived and perhaps interpolated with the notions of mercury filled channeled blades and sensationalized by contemporaries writing for effect. It seems further that the financial ventures undertaken under this unusual name must have derived from the holdings of these swordmaking enterprises in the form of these confiscated Irish estates, and assembled under the Hollow Sword Blade Co. name. Hermann Mohll, who was in the one instance noted as the founder, continued operating after his troubles in 1703 as Hermann Mohll & Son while the Hollow Sword Blade Co. continued as such until it dissolved in 1720. This suggests to me that the firm begun by Mohll (the ancestor of the well known Robert Mole firm of Birmingham, England eventually acquired by Wilkinson) was separate from the Hollow Blade Co. While of course not directly associated with the theme of this thread on markings, it is interesting history that has to do with the British blademaking ancestry and Solingen makers. Just as with our study of the fascinating history of makers marks, this is the lore of edged weapons which gives them such fantastic dimension. All the very best,] Jim . |
Unknow marks on cup hilted sword
Old 25th May 2012, 05:14 PM #231
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID. You may also check the respective discussion thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597 Any help will be much welcome. . |
Old 27th May 2012, 02:10 AM #232
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Fernando, I cannot help my curiosity on these marks but I cannot make out what the forte mark is since it is partly obscured or worn away, in any case seems incomplete. The undulating line it seems was well explained by Jasper in the other thread showing the latteen wavy line on medieval blade, noting its Christian symbolism . I am wondering if it is possible that a mark like this on a rapier could perhaps allude to the fabled flamberge or wavy blades romanticized in some medieval swords and later rapiers as well. While there is some conflict in terminology with these blades termed flammard and flambard and the flamberge name for the sword of Renaud (It. Rinaldo), it does seem symbolically important for 'heroic' or powerful swords. I would admit this is perhaps a fanciful suggestion, but still it seemed worthy of note in addition to the well placed note by Jasper, with consideration to both. Naturally I would hope others might have seen this type mark on other blades, or might offer thier views. . |
Old 27th May 2012, 07:07 AM #233
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by fernando I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID. (Quote) You may also check the respective discussion thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597 Any help will be much welcome. (Quote) . Salaams fernando. I have read the supporting thread ( and about 10 hours of background research into Spanish swords though I have only scraped the surface so far ~it is a vast subject) As well as our own resource I note for forum a couple of back up introductory pieces which will help break the ice for newcomers to the style viz; http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascani...rara_swords.pdf http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/jineta-sword.htm gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/download/204/206 I include here a fascinating metalurgical research project done on Spanish blades viz; http://csic.academia.edu/MarcGener/...d_rapier_blades I note that your blade mark is not amongst the 90 plus marks in your earlier thread on Spanish blade marks .. could it be an old Arabic stamp ? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
Old 27th May 2012, 07:05 PM #234
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Outstanding entries Ibrahiim! especially Marc's work on the metallurgy of many of these blades. The presence of Muslim swordsmiths in Spain is well established in medieval times and of course the jineta weapons as well. The diffusion between the processes and techniques between them and the Frankish smiths is also well known. While there may be a degree of connection developmentally it is not as far as I know clearly defined other than obvious influences being exchanged. The power of Solingens ever increasing production by the 17th and 18th century had superceded that of Toledo and blades were produced for the markets of Spain and Portugal as well as so many others. Although these blades were characteristically marked with inscriptions, names and marks to appeal to these markets, I am not sure of any Islamic mark or inscription of earlier Spanish makers of those earlier periods which might have carried forth into this later context. It is known however, that many earlier heroic and romanticized notions from European and perhaps even earlier Frankish period/Viking periods were often included on blades along with these otherwise 'tailored' markings. Having noted that, in further consideration of the 'wavy' blade idea to allude to fabled swords in chivalry, I completely forgot about Lee Jones important work on medieval blades "The Serpent in the Sword" . In this discussion on metallurgy of early medieval blades, he notes the cite from Paul DuChaillu (1889, "The Viking Age") where Skeggi instructs Kormak on the use of his sword Skofnung; "...if thou comest to the fighting place, sit alone and draw it. Hold up the blade and blow on it, then a small snake will creep from under the guard". These words metaphorically are meant to remind him to respect the sword and control his impulsiveness. Perhaps this perception seen inlaid on medieval blades such as shown by Jasper of the 13th c. example may have been carried forth in marks used along with others which survived as well, such as the crosses, cross and orb and others. Again admittedly speculative, but worthy of consideration. . |
Old 27th May 2012, 07:12 PM #235
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Thanks for your input Jim. You are right in that the mark in the forte is somehow incomplete. However rather than worn by use, it was in fact a job negleted by its author; actualy the (same) mark on the other side is in a much worse condition. The guy that apllied these marks wasn't minimally worried with their visibility. This is (also) why i think this not a maker's mark but the "punzon" of an inspector; while a displicent inspector or/and a much worn tool. But obviously this is my speculation; not the slightest evidence. The undulating line is not that rare. I have already seen it (at least) in sword loose blade i saw once for sale, which was actualy acquired by a guy i know. I just don't know if such one also had that V like simbol in its end. I have gone through my books looking for it, as i am sure i saw this symbol times before. Maybe on of these days ... . |
Old 27th May 2012, 08:57 PM #236
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Shalom Ibrahiim, No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark. ... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story. No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that. . |
Old 28th May 2012, 06:16 PM #237
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by fernando Shalom Ibrahiim, No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark. ... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story. No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that. (Quote) Salaams fernando ~ Yes I had my doubts when I saw the & in the final circle of the stamp which is as you point out Latin(Et = & = and) and would agree that it is either a Spanish or German stamp. (Solingen did a lot of copying and vica versa.) Regarding the snake insignia etched on swords there is an interesting link on Omani Sayf; markings for ID by Ilyiad on the Ethnographic forum which is interesting. In addition it carries the running wolf copied stamp. In fact on the subject of the running woolf there are two forms; 1. The Passau of Germany(Solingen) and 2. The Perrillo of Spain (Toledo) Whilst the former tends to be a running woolf the latter appears as a prancing or rearing dog. Good sword stamps appear copied onto Arabian swords but it is a puzzle since no one has defined from which area the stamp was copied.. Was it the German or Spanish stamp copied by middle eastern swordsmiths..? On the & mark I had originally thought it may have been part of the strap attached to a horn as in the Weyersberg mark from the 1630 era. This does not explain the rest of the strike mark which I cannot decipher...could it be two strike marks? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
Old 29th May 2012, 04:54 PM #238
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Excellent observations as always Ibrahiim! Thank you for the reference to the 'rocker' type punches on the Omani blade which indeed seem to correspond to the snake/serpent type mark being discussed. This does seem to have a rather mechanical stylized similarity to the 13th century latteen inlaid mark presented by Cornelistromp on another thread, and was used by medieval swordsmiths on thier blades presumably in German shops. It is always of course compelling evidence that these early blades were seen in Arab/North African/East African trade contexts and the use of the images carried forth in local work. While the perillo (=little dog) image attributed to Julian del Rey in Spain does seem to have had similar impact on some native markings in North African context (Briggs, 1965), it does not seem to have been duplicated in the rest of Europe to the best of my knowledge. The 'running wolf of Passau' of course was somewhat widely duplicated in vast variation in Europe as well as the Caucusus, North Africa and probably Arabia in some degree which remains unclear. It seems the ampersand (&) symbol did also appear in some markings and print but as far as I know this device was not widely used until more recent times on blades. It would be interesting to look further into that aspect. All the best, Jim . |
Question THE WOLF AND THE DOG
1 Attachment(s)
Old 29th May 2012, 06:31 PM #239
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal My perspective of the mark on the forte not looking Arabic script was not the suggested & but the geometric incomplete figure rright below, by (me) being originaly influenced by the letter T of Toledo. The symbol above, which i can understand that Ibrahiim sees it like a &, would have been for me some kind of crown ... again influenced by traditional mark fashions. However for as much as it looks like the ampersand, i could never imagine such figure stamped in XVII century swords. But of course this could also be a German (Solingen) blade, mounted with a Spanish (not to say Portuguese) hilt. I am convinced that the localizing of the "snake symbol" of the blade would help to decipher the riddle. The symbol on Ilyad's saif would be a distinct thing. Its zig-zag lines are angulated, not waving, which makes it a different attitude. As quoted by Jim, while the Passau wolf has been copied all over, the perrillo of Julian del Rey did not reach so large universe. Furthermore, each of them has a rather different basis; while the Passau wolf, despite its several variations, appears to be an unequivocal zoomorphical specimen, the perrillo gives place to determined speculation. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, in his work on Julian del Rey, while suggesting that: A- the guy was a morillo (Moor), a Jineta sword smith who worked for Boabdil, was converted to christianism by the Catholic Kings after the take over of Granada, thus receiving the last name of del Rey (of the King, or King's), B -presents some doubts on the zoomorphic figure being a dog or a lion. The figure of a lion was (and still is) an heraldic symbol present in several Spanish cities and could have well been the quality inspection mark of Zaragoza, where Julian del Rey worked, as reminded in Palomar's nomina. It is also suggested that Palomar might have adopted a position for the animal, in his drawing, not exactly as it should appear. On the other hand Edouard de Beaumont connects the perrilo in the blade of a jineta present in the National Paris Library to Julian del Rey while in his Granadine personality, giving logic to the later appearance of the dog in Julian's swords. To complicate (even more) the things, i here attach one more (of other) mark/s used by Julian del Rey, this one present in sword kept at the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. . |
Old 30th May 2012, 07:17 AM #240
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Salaams Jim and Fernando ~ This has been a vertical learning curve for me but an essential lesson in bringing the important area of Spanish, Italian, German and indeed Scottish blades into focus. I have a work in progress on Portuguese weapons owned by me(20 years ago) but now with new owners but have been promised photographs ... In the old days there were quite a few Rapiers in the Oman left over from pre 1650 vintage days. Even though I twist the stamp detail around still I cannot see Toledo and I still think the ampersand & in a circle is perhaps the strap from a horn viz; ~ On the & mark I had originally thought it may have been part of the strap attached to a horn as in the Weyersberg mark from the 1630 era. This does not explain the rest of the strike mark which I cannot decipher...could it be two strike marks? It may, however, be something totally different. Thank you for your replies. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
Old 4th June 2012, 09:42 PM #241
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Culminating with a few contacts with qualified persons, including those who favour us with their 'unfrequent' presence, i have visited an arms historian/collector the past week end. The explanation for the decoration on the blade is the following: It is in fact the depiction of a snake, used by the Milanese sword smiths, but one of those copied all over through time; therefore not a viable sign to define a specific provenance for this or other sword. As a reminder i was called attention to the emblem of the famous Milanese Alfa Romeo automobile factory, where the snake is present. This symbol, originated in the Milanese house of Visconti, would have its full representation with a crowned "snake" swalowing a child (prince) in his mouth. The inferrement is that the horizontal V in current blade decorations is the snake mouth. Needless to say that, once we learn the keyword, the Internet has lots of information on this symbol. Concerning the mark punch on the blade forte, no progress has been reached ... unfortunately . . |
Old 4th June 2012, 10:14 PM #242
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Another sword i remembered having seen at a neighbour collector, with the snake and its mouth ... and other traditional symbols (missing attachments) - |
Old 18th June 2012, 11:38 AM #243
Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Lightbulb * Dime el * Aterro * A needed addition....perhaps some light will come. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15707 Gav . |
Traditional serpent ornament
Old 18th June 2012, 02:18 PM #244
Posted by: Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Hi 'Nando, The wavy serpent-shaped ornament, as I have often pointed out, is a very old European decorative element which was used from ancient times thru the Gothic, Renaissance and Early Baroque periods. It shows up especially (though not exclusively) on almost all kinds of ironworks, including early- to mid-16th century barrels which were symbolically seen as the incarnation of a fire throwing monster such as a dragon or serpent. Some muzzles of barrels of that Renaissance period were even shaped as fire-spitting zoomorphic animals. These facts kept in mind, it is in my opinion impossible to assign a stylized serpent ornament on a blade to a certain maker or center of production, although they were mostly employed in North Italian and South German regions. This is NOT a mark but as you say just a traditional symbol, an ornament; that's all there is to it. Some illustrations: From top: - an antenna rapier, late 16th c., from the Collection of the Princes of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vaduz (1 image) - a fish-tail rapier, late 16th c., from Schloss Ambras (2 images) - a Landsknecht's saber, South German, ca. 1540 (2) - muzzles of three Nuremberg arquebus barrels, ca. 1530, especially the one on top (1) - detail of a Nuremberg arquebus barrel dated 1539 (2) - detail of another Nuremberg barrel, ca. 1550 - detail of a mid-16th c. igniting iron (1) - detail of the muzzle of an arquebus, ca. 1530, Schloss Heidecksburg (1) - detail of the staghorn inlaid tiller of a crossbow, ca. 1520's, Schloss Heidecksburg (1) - detail of an engraved serpent amidst foliage, on a Nuremberg cranequin, dated 1545 (1) Best, Michl (missing attachments) . |
#245
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Outstanding entries guys! Fernando thank you for the update on the serpent motif on that cuphilt and for sharing the outcome of suggestions from the contacts you note. It does seem a quite viable possibility that these heraldic associations might well come into play in some manner when a swordsmith selected motif or designs to place in his blades. We have of course long established that many otherwise generally used devices have been placed on blades in talismanic or magical sense along with makers marks. It does seem also well known that certain symbols or devices which allude to particular political or ruling factions may be the source for some markings, and these 'coded' symbols are well known in Italy and many others. The Jacobites in Scotland used certain symbols in thier openwork and piercing on baskethilts in many cases, but the subject remains largely unresearched. I think Jasper's notes on the use of the serpent or dragon in medieval blades is well placed as not only a Christian related symbol, but was established as a symbol of power in the warriors sense from the times of the Vikings. The outstanding article by Lee Jones, "The Serpent in the Blade" explains the perception of the pattern welding in the blades perceived as a snake or serpent, and via the sword itself as a symbol of strength. In the medieval period there was of course in Europe the well known Order of the Dragon, which may trace origins into ancient times with this creature used as a totem of military strength. In the case of the last entry by Fernando showing the blade with multiple crossbars on the well known cross and orb as well as the undulating device with the 'V' mouth and dots or stars in the alternating curves, it seems this may be intended as talismanic or magical. The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades. This device was later adopted by Solingen as they began producing spuriously marked blades representing Spanish forms. While these marks are perceived as religious in degree, they are essentially invocations calling amuletically for protection and strength. The serpent with its military connotations seems of course well placed in this context. Regarding the use of undulating lines as well as alternating 's' marks in linear motif or in profiling segments of a weapon, it seems that these are often somewhat aesthetically chosen designs. However it must be considered that the possibility of subtle association or nuance may well have been at hand in the choice of the artisan fashioning or marking the blade. In the case of firearms, naturally the often applied metaphor and colloquial reference to many guns referred to dragons with the fire breathing feature well noted. The 'dime el aterro' blade added by Gav here is also intriguing. While the translation examination presents an interesting conundrum, I think it is important to note Fernando's earlier description of regulated blade lengths in Spain and Portugal as I believe he noted. This blade which is now mounted in a firangi is about 41" long, and would seem to correspond to the longer blades which exceeded the five span limitation. This then may explain its presence in this firangi in accord with Fernando's note that many of these 'outlaw' blades were apparantly exported (possibly after confiscation?) to India and other trade entrepots. I am inclined to believe that the blade is either a Solingen product or Italian (similar to many of thier blades) , however due to the seemingly corrupted or transliterated nature of the inscription perhaps the blade never even reached the markets in Spain or Portugal due to these restrictions. Thank you again Fernando, Michael and Gav for adding these entries to this thread and adding to the archived material which I hope many will find useful as well as promoting ongoing research. I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them. All the very best, Jim . |
#246
Posted by: Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Outstanding entries guys! The cross and orb are more associated with Solingen makers, while the multibar crosses (often termed anchors) are typically associated with Spanish blades. I cannot resist noting again Michael, that your photographs and illustrations are a pure treasure trove!! and I am ever grateful for your gracious sharing of them. All the very best, Jim (Quote) Hi Jim, Thank you so much once more! I feel more than rewarded by the feedback that my comprehensive archives can sometimes be of some use to some people. As to the cross and orb mark, from all what I have gathered on early blades, it was mostly used in the South German and Austrian areas throughout the 16th c, mostly in the first half. Thus it is often found on Pasau and Munich blades, and it was also struck on a fine Messer, ca. 1500-20, from the Princely Collections of Liechtenstein, Schloss Vadz, that once was in my collection; photos attached. For more on this fine specimen, plesse see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...0&page=12&pp=30, posts # 360 and 361. Interesting enough I have never noticed a cross and orb mark on any barrel or lock so it seems definitely to have been confined to blades. Best, Michael (missing attachments) . |
Old 29th June 2012, 09:05 PM #247
Posted by: Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking In some instances, 16th c. artists were astoundingly exact in their depictions, including the representation of characteristic blade marks. Attached please find a depiction of a cross-and-orb mark, together with a wavy serpent ornament, on the blade of a ca. 1540's Landsknecht saber, in a painting by Lucas Cranach the Younger, dated 1584, preserved in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nuremberg. Author's photos, 1995. Please see also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...1713#post141713 Best, Michael (missing attachments) . |
Old 2nd November 2012, 03:26 PM #248
Posted by: theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Originally Posted by Jeff D Hi Jim, How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added. Jeff (Quote) I have the same orb and Solingen cross with rose gold on my schiavone blade with a running wolf with reminance of rose gold inlay also is this the same smith? I thought it might be copper or rose gold. I might give it a drop of nitric acid to find out. (missing attachments) . |
Old 4th November 2012, 03:20 PM #249
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades. It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings. Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile? In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. , |
Old 26th November 2012, 04:19 PM #250
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Jim McDougall The cross and orb was an invocational and often seemingly talismanic device which seems to have derived from Southern Germany centers (according to important observations made by Michael in earlier posts). These would have included Passau, which is also presumably the origin for the running wolf, and again, with Michaels key observations these cross and orb are found quite consistantly on 16th century blades. It is interesting that these marks are on a schiavona, and it would be most helpful to see the profile of the entire blade as these paired markings on opposed sides of blade also are known to be found on some kaskara blades in the Sudan. As many of these blades entered Africa through Meditteranean entrepots it is conceivable that the same blades found on many early European swords may have includede these markings. This becomes even more plausible with the red hued latten inlay which is seen on a number of blade markings (Jeff Demetrick posted one) and the native penchant for copying these markings. Please may we see the entire sword and blade profile? In answer to your question, most of these kinds of markings occur in varying degree and form, and though some makers may have had certain affinities or preferences, they are not known to be confined to any maker or workshop specifically unless with accompanying mark of note. Wagner (1967) considers the cross and orb to typically signify terminus of an inscription, name or phrase in blade motif, while as noted, these became used singularly apparantly as talismanic or devotional devices alluding perhaps to some of these. (Quote) Salaams Jim ~ This is indeed a very interesting subject and we are all waiting to see the entire sword please "theswordcollector" if you can publish a picture ... ? I see a lot of fake marked passau wolf and moons etc etc though I suspect some drift into Red Sea areas of German Broadswords and dare I say it, late Constantinople swords, I have no proof except a strange similarity in some Saudia blades that look mildly Mamluke.. My real question is; Are Schiavona(the double edged variety) linked to Red Sea variants? It would be good to see a full blade please. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
Old 26th November 2012, 06:18 PM #251
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Ibrahiim, In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s. The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows. Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings. All the best, Jim . |
#252
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Hi Ibrahiim, In current research passim, I am finding more evidence that schiavona 'type' blades are seemingly more present in 'Red Sea' regions, most notably in those entering Egypt, Ethiopia and the Sudan. Examples of schiavona broadsword blades of c. 1780s-90s with some having five fullers seem to directly have influenced variants of native made broadsword blades termed 'Suleyman' known to be made into the 1960s. The Mamluks were within the Ottoman suzerainty in these times, and as extremely conservative in styles and traditions still had thier traditional broadswords in these regions in Egypt and northern Sudan in certain degree. While renowned for their famed sabres, in traditional parlance the broadswords remained in place somewhat commemoratively. These influenced in my opinion the development of the kaskara broadswords in corroboration with these sword forms long in use in the Sahara. Many of the blades entering ports off the Red Sea such as Suakin in particular, received not only German blades but Italian. I have seen instances early in the 18th century where these German and Italian blades entered India via East India Company ships, where these in turn entered Malabar trade routes which often led to the Red Sea via Arab dhows. Ottoman (Constantinople), Caucasian, Arabian, German, Italian and Spanish blades all would have been present in these trade routes via various circumstances whether dominion, trade or geopolitical situations in different times. One in these trade spheres they often remained in use for many generations and many refittings. All the best, Jim (Quote) Salaams Jim ~ Thanks for your reply and it is further interesting that the Mamlukes were taken over by the Ottomans because of the Red Sea; The Mamluki palace coffers were filled with booty, riches and gold from the throughput trade to the rest of Europe from China via the Mamluke Empire, thus, the importance of the Red Sea hub in the days before the Ottomans (Othmanli) struck. It was in fact the Portuguese on entering the Indian Ocean who closed the Red Sea to Chinese trade. Once that had been achieved the Mamluke Sultanate simply went bust. Since its army was essentially 100% mercenary (Mamluke essentially means mercenary/slave) the general collapse was fast. It was then that the Ottomans went for it. (I reccommend the amazing work on the Mamlukes by John Glubb Pasha). Back to earth ~ The remarkable pictures posted by VANDOO at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14049 and others shows the extent to which these Red Sea weapons blades equate.. though this may only be coincidental...and in terms of the double edged Shiavona blades the resemblence is very close. What I mean is in comparison to the straight blades at #1 second picture http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...LACE+COLLECTION Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
#253
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Salaams Jim, I have just entered a reply on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118 which is a fascinating thread By Jean-Marc S encompassing the little known world of Heraldry and Coats of Arms.(or perhaps the well known by a few). I suggested on that thread that it would be an excellent idea to persue that along the same lines that you have done with this vital informational encyclopedia on blade marks and include this note for your information...and by way of moderator support request this as a Forum idea. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
Old 28th January 2013, 06:08 AM #254
Posred by. Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Thanks to Ibrahiim, who reminded me of this wonderfull thread, Im posting a Peter Munich marking from a karabela sword whom thread Ive opened recently. link: karabela with munich mark (missing attachments) . |
Old 28th January 2013, 11:32 AM #255
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal It would be a pity if members don't visit the " Classic Threads " thread, which is in a sticky position on the top of the front page: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...2118#post152118 ... Such is the importance we give to themes like the one in question. , |
Old 11th March 2014, 05:22 PM #256
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by fernando It would be a pity if members don't visit the " Classic Threads " thread, which is in a sticky position on the top of the front page: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14460 ... Such is the importance we give to themes like the one in question. (Quote) I totally agree!! . |
Old 19th March 2014, 03:26 PM #257
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Salaams All.. This strange sword has appeared from somewhere in Africa; I presume. But what it is I have no clue. Apologies in advance as the full sword picture failed to come out. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. (missing attachments) . |
Old 19th March 2014, 05:51 PM #258
Posted by: Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Hi Ibrahiim, Though this is not my field, I hope I can clarify your query. There is a recent book in German by Jürg Meier: Vivat Hollandia - zur Geschichte der Schweizer in holländischen Diensten 1740-1795. Griffwaffen und Uniformen. 2008. The author describes the use of both edged weapons and uniforms of Swiss soldiers serving for the Netherlands. Thus your sword with that inscription dedicated to the Netherlands must be of Swiss make between 1740 and 1795. The #4 and combined sign both stand for the respective unit; for an identification of the latter I am certain we do have some experts. Best, Michael (missing attachments) . |
Old 20th March 2014, 04:54 AM #259
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thank you so much for posting this, its great to see this venerable thread revived. This is indeed an interesting grouping and inscription on this blade. Michael, thank you so much for coming in on this!! and for the excellent input on these Swiss mercenary forces which were so prevalent in European armies. This perfectly explains this slogan VIVAT HOLLANDIA . Actually most blades for the Dutch, and for Swiss forces in these times were typically produced in Solingen, though in many cases there were German smiths working in the Netherlands. I have not been aware of any working in Switzerland. Solingen in the 18th century was producing numbers of blades for various European countries and there were variations with the 'Vivat' motto. Others were 'Vivat Pandur' usually on various hangers and hunting weapons including plug bayonets; also 'Vivat Hussar' on military sabres with military motif and panoplies. Many of these were destined for Austria, Hungary and other centers in Europe. The majuscule IK with the numeral 4 above is most likely a makers initials, and the 4 atop is in similar configuration as this number above the heart on EIC balemark as well as many makers and printers logos using initials topped by the 4. This number is considered talismanic (for the magical/astrological symbol for Jupiter) and was used in the same fashion as the cross and orb so often seen on arms. In Bezdek (p.142) a mark with large block initials D over K with the 4 above them was used by Dries Klein in Solingen 1610-30. These makers marks and initials were often passed down or sold, but the configurations and use of key symbols (such as the 4) were often adopted in variation. I would say that this Solingen maker (as yet unidentified) probably used this tradition in marking the blade. The doves were a favored Christian symbol sometimes seen on Hungarian blades with magic or talismanic symbols, and used in other similar motif. Interesting to see these blades occurring in number, and I hope we might see other examples and especially what type blades they are on. All best regards, JIm . |
Old 20th March 2014, 07:03 AM #260
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Matchlock Hi Ibrahiim, Though this is not my field, I hope I can clarify your query. There is a recent book in German by Jürg Meier: Vivat Hollandia - zur Geschichte der Schweizer in holländischen Diensten 1740-1795. Griffwaffen und Uniformen. 2008. The author describes the use of both edged weapons and uniforms of Swiss soldiers serving for the Netherlands. Thus your sword with that inscription dedicated to the Netherlands must be of Swiss make between 1740 and 1795. The #4 and combined sign both stand for the respective unit; for an identification of the latter I am certain we do have some experts. Best, Michael (Quote) Salaams Michael ~ Thank you for your great reply. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
#261
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Salaams Jim and thank you very much for your reply... I shall try to expand on the blade details... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. - |
Old 19th April 2015, 03:55 PM #262
Posred by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe I know it is seldom you see an Indian sword here, but this is to show how marks were copied. The gauntlet is made of wootz, and the blade is very flexible, but it is Indian made. (missing attachments) . |
Old 19th April 2015, 04:26 PM #263
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde I know it is seldom you see an Indian sword here, but this is to show how marks were copied. The gauntlet is made of wootz, and the blade is very flexible, but it is Indian made. (Quote) Outstanding Jens!!! This is a perfect example of how ethnographic arms and European are often inexorably linked, through trade or otherwise acquired blades and the adoption of European stamps, marks, and inscriptions used by native artisans in their interpretations. While many of these markings are trade or guild oriented in Europe, and many are either magical, religious or talismanic in their application there, these were often transmuted into folk religious, talismanic or other symbolism in local native parlances. Better understanding of these markings in their respective cultural spheres often give us perspective on interaction and influences as far as dates, periods etc often help us establish details in identification of ethnographic examples. Thank you so much Jens, good to see this thread again!! All the best, Jim . |
Old 21st April 2015, 08:47 AM #264
Posted by: ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 An intriguing medieval sword in the British Museum of London around 1300. The symbols on the blade are of gold inlay and remain a mystery so far.... (missing attachments) , |
Old 15th May 2015, 02:21 PM #265
Posted by: dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though. (Quote) Jim, this recent article in National Geographic has me looking for the posts where you mention blades from shipwrecks off the coast of Panama. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...an-archaeology/ "The cargo ship went down in 1681 with crates of swords, nails, and bolts of cloth." . |
Old 3rd June 2015, 06:46 PM #266
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Salaams All~ Please accept this web address for information on Signs Ornaments and Inscriptions on Swords please see http://www.academia.edu/496513/Medi..._Aleksi%C 4%87 Simply get onto the page and slide down the right hand side to page 117. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
Old 4th June 2015, 04:12 PM #267
Posted by: ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Salaams Ibrahiim, that is an amazing find and sublime research ! kind regards Ulfberth - |
Old 30th January 2016, 03:49 AM #268
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 It seems most appropriate to note here that a magnificent book, "European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks" by Staffan Kinman, President of the Swedish Arms and Armour Society, published in 2015 is now available through Ken Trotman arms books in England. This thread has had a magnificent run, and has essentially archived our many discussions on the markings which have been often perplexing and presented ponderous queries. Here in the pages of Mr Kinman's wonderful book are details on many of these compiled with absolutely magnificent research! . |
Old 12th March 2016, 06:45 PM #269
Posted by: joyfulkitten Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Washington State, USA I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks? Attached Images . |
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