|
Old 20th October 2009, 04:39 PM
Posted by. Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 When I first saw this, I thought also of the 'Caribbean' versions of cup hilt rapier, as described by Peterson and Brickerhoff/Chamberlain, and are as previously noted, basically military 'arming' versions of the traditional cuphilt. However, this example has more refined, though heavy, styling carrying the vestigial elements such as the rompepuntas. The term 'Caribbean' seems to have become somewhat misaligned as these are actually 'colonial' as thier use and apparantly their production appear to have been widespread far beyond that sphere. The dual colored grip is similar to those seen on Spanish colonial hilts on a number of edged weapons typically of latter 18th into early 19th. I have an example of court type sword of probably 1820's Mexico with this type of horn/ivory type grip. In style it is also with neoclassic style elements that are often seemingly incongruent, such as vestigial quillon arms placed reduntantly under a dish guard. The mark truly is intriguing, and I think is likely associated in some way to an officer, probably with interest or membership in a group in league with the numerous fraternal or perhaps some Masonic presence. Also, it would seem that the use of the Caravaca Cross, with South American prevalence mentioned may have some bearing on its presumed colonial provenance. . |
Old 20th October 2009, 06:36 PM
Posted : celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Hi Guys, The central wide fuller makes the blade distinctly different to the "a dos mesas" type, so characteristic of iberian battle-swords in the 17-18th Cs. I have seen such fullers in swedish, german and belgian blades. The grip is a later replacement, its type was often seen in Spanish colonies from Filipinas to America.. Incidentally, the blade is too heavy for the pommel's size. The motto is either galician or portuguese, most likely the latter. Very good condition overall, congrats Ferd! . |
Old 20th October 2009, 07:20 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Excellent observations Manolo!!! Could you please say more on the term 'dos mesas' ? I am unfamiliar with that particular term and would like to know more. I agree with the cross section of the blade resembling the Solingen type productions of c.1760's with the 'Spanish motto' often found on 'dragoon' swords. All the best, Jim . |
Old 20th October 2009, 08:33 PM
Posted by: celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA You mean the "No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor" ? The " a dos mesas" is roughly a flat hexagonal cross cut blade. Jim, I'm afraid I must eat crow: checked my database of old Iberian blades, and saw several with the central wide fuller... Drat! I'm fallible after all.... Or am I? Perhaps I was just testing you. Yeah, that's it, just testing you... : ) Manolo, you rascal!! LOL!! Thats OK, I need testing, besides eating crow is often part of my regimen and I do it a lot Thank you for the info on 'dos mesas' is the hexagonal blade which I always call the dragoon blade (from certain references) and indeed often with the No me saques sin Razon motto. All the best, Jim . |
Old 20th October 2009, 11:24 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Hi guys, thank you all In face of so many coments, i decided to take off my cuff links and do a bit research myself, trying to instantly catch pace with those, like you, whom gathered a lot of luggage in this subject through long time. I will in any case continue researching and try and join as most material as i can on this item, as i usually do. Concerning Norman's sugestion about the crucifix; considering he is right ... or half way to it. We can even go as far as imagining that this mark is a composition made with the smith punction and the client's symbol. But i am not personaly inclined to it, until further evidence ... or until we find this mark in some book or picture. I went into the unusual (for me) adventure of dismounting the guard; fortunately the pommel is the screw type. Now the mark is as clear as possible. A real chalenge; besides the classic christ in a crucified position, as may be seen in Pedro Hernandez mark, there is a peripherical double beam cross, upon a sort of calvary and with an aureole on the top. I wonder whether this is a Patriarchal or a Lorena Cross, or a 'modified' setup created by the smith. I couldn't yet confirm if and what inscriptions Pedro Hernandez and other eventual crucifix mark smiths used to inscribe in their blades, but suddenly i realized that the phrase MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO is not an abstract allusion but an objective one, that is, the signal (sign) they refer is the mark they punction on the blade recazo: the crucifix. I don't think i assimilate the sugestion that this sword is Caribbean ... or Spanish colonial, or the like; much less a rapier . I am totally convinced that this sword is Peninsular; either Spanish or Portuguese ... or both; like a XVII century Spanish blade with a XVIII century Portuguese hilt ... for instance . I have just checked the digital copy of a catalogue published to cover the Ornamental Art Exhibition held in the Lisbon Academy of Fine Arts in 1882. There were four swords with the inscription MIN SINAL HES ... all (syntomaticaly) with the same spelling, and all dated by the catalogue author as being from the XVII century. And, two amazing things: one of them was a schiavona sword and another, a cup hilted one, had the marks of famous Alonso Sahagun on the blade forte. Except for the schiavona, the other three were quoted to have a crucifix on both sides of the recazo. I agree with Manolo that the blade shape of 'bulk' cup hilt battle swords was the dos mesas (two convex faces cross-section); i have one myself and also find one pictured and described in a book i have. But i guess this doesn't eliminate other shapes, does it? I eventually have a similarly fullered specimen in the same book, precisely with the MIN SINAL HES motto ... and in the same lettering as my example; and also dated XVII century, although i can't guarantee the author's rigour; it belongs to his own collection. ... And, Manolo, i don't think the blade is too heavy for the pommel size . Remember the blade is fullered and of short length; the point of balance is 8 cms away from the guard. What do you think? Concerning the dimension of the rumpe puntas (quebra pontas) Jim, i see plenty like this one, as still being within the 'norm'; but here between us two, i think such implement was more on the fantasy side, rather than an operational device . My best wishes to everyone ... and thanks a lot for your participation. Fernando (missing attachments) . |
2 Attachment(s)
Old 21st October 2009, 01:48 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Meet the crucifix used by Pedro Hernandez. Fernando . |
Old 21st October 2009, 03:35 PM
Posted by: celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Hi Nando, I forgot to take into consideration the weight of its hefty cup guard, it should help the pommel maintain the balance. . |
Old 21st October 2009, 09:37 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Superb research work Fernando! and thank you for sharing the progression of your work with observations, thoughts and details. This is very much textbook in pursuing the identification of weapons and learning the history as well, and truly the joy of them as they tell us thier stories. The fact that these have the cuphilt feature simply reflects the traditionalism inherent in Portuguese and Spanish swords, much favored by the brilliant swordsmen who wielded them. I agree that the rompepuntas feature is indeed vestigial, or reflecting the presumed purpose on the earlier cuphilts. I think it is simply a more finished appearance rather than practical purpose such as catching blade points. With the cuphilt rapiers of the 17th century remaining in use for so long, and these arming or military versions coming into use in the early 18th, it does not seem surprising that ambitious assessments for 17th century are made for them. I am inclined to agree for the Peninsular identity for this 'copos de tigela' and it is interesting to see that, as you have noted, the inscription seems to correspond to this 'double beamed' crucifix cross. With that it seems that this seems to suggest a 'type' of blade imbued with this talismanic element. Interestingly blades made in Solingen seem to have spurious markings employed for appeal to certain markets, i.e. the well known ANDREA FERARA blades, primarily found on Scottish baskethilt type broadsword blades; the SAHAGUM (N) blades, which seem prevalent on the Continent; and even in degree the true rapier form blades marked with inscriptions presumed Aiala et al. (JESUS MARIA) which were produced it seems even into the 18th century (these are not as clearly determined). We have generally held for some time that the hexagonal (dos mesas) military blades with the ' no me saques sin razon/ no me envaines sin honor' motto, are most likely Solingen produced and intended for colonial consumption, being sent to New Spain in huge volume. These blades seem to correspond somewhat concurrently in the placement and style of thier inscription. As Manolo has noted, the grip style seems to favor remounts in the colonial sphere, throughout the 'Main' and to the Phillipines. I think the use of the cross or crucifix, is much like that of the cross and orb, used with mottos, inscriptions and invocations as talismanic enhancement, with particular devices or forms often associated with certain makers as they appear along with marked work by that maker. They are not makers marks in themselves, as you have well surmised. Again, I really enjoy the teamwork and discussion really sharing ideas and observations in learning more on these weapons. While I've been on these trails for more years than I care to reveal, I'm still trying to learn, and I always encourage those out there reading to come in with us! One never knows where the vital clue may be found!! All best regards, Ji. |
Old 26th October 2009, 07:49 AM
Posted by: Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico I don't know if I understood well, but on the contrary, the wide central fuller 'a dos mesas' in the first two thirds of the blade is common on the spanish military swords from the 18th Century, just see this: http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf . The number of mesas is the number of 'facets' a blade has in one side of the blade, not counting the fuller. So, the flat diamond shaped blade has two (dos) mesas in one side, and a flat hexagon has tres (three) mesas. Usually, a rapier has a short fuller, and when it ends, you can count the number of mesas. There are flate hexagonal blades without fuller, and they are also tres mesas. But I personally believe this sword from Fernando is technically not a rapier under spanish terms, but a transition form, since it is not a civilian weapon, and the widht and form of the blade does not correspond to a rapier, since is too broad in the beginning (as a good military sword from the period) and very 'triangular' and pointy. I don't think those quillons were only vestigial. They were used also in cup hilted rapiers, and very large, due the needs imposed by the fencing techniques. In this case, the quillons are shorter but I don't think useless. Regards Gonzalo |
Old 26th October 2009, 09:51 PM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hi Gonzalo, Its good to see you back, and much appreciated as I know the difficulty you experience in getting access at times. I think many of us take for granted the things we often regard as simple such as computer access, and just wanted to say thank you for always extending the effort. Also thank you for the excellent observations on the 'mesas'. I had not heard nor understood the use of the term in the nomenclature, and appreciate the detail you have added. I believe we pretty well ascertained that Fernando's sword was a military 'arming' type sword, and the rapier term here is used rather superficially, noting its similarity to the traditional cuphilt rapiers. The 'vestigial' term here also was in reference to the 'rompepuntas', which we seem to agree was unlikely to be of use operationally as intended, in catching the point of a traditional rapier in the quite different use from combat with these heavy bladed swords. The vestigial term used with regard to quillons was a reference I was making to a Mexican 'court' sword I have, which has the cross quillons mounted underneath the dish guard. While the sword is certainly made for fashion rather than actual use, the application of both type guards seemed redundant, and I considered the elements vestigial in representation. The quillons on these military cuphilts, may have perhaps served a limited degree of purpose, but the style of fighting with them was certainly quite different than with the traditional thin bladed cuphilts. All the best Gonzalo! Jim . |
Old 27th October 2009, 07:15 AM
Posted by: Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico You are right, Jim, I am sorry for not reading well what you meant by 'vestigial', I completely agree with you. My best regards Gonzalo . |
Old 28th October 2009, 07:46 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal At least i could have the crucifix mark recognized, if still not (yet) identified. A reputed Catalunian arms dealer has already sold two swords with this mark; both cup hilted and with the same blade inscription. He doesn't know however its origin, although his guess goes for the German provenance. This is a reasonable guess; zillions of blades were imported from Germany into the peninsula, in a major scale to Spain, in the context. It is also more reasonable to think that blade inscriptions like the one in my example, would be made by German smiths; they were known to fancy writing such phrases in spanish, but couldn't avoid the wrong spellings. I guess there are three errors in the phrase " Min Sinal Hes el Santissimo Crucificio "; and i don't think the reason is that at the time, the orthography of these words was different. Fernando . |
Old 29th October 2009, 03:48 AM
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 No problem at all Gonzalo In the text of my ramblings and sometimes my choice of words could be better. Fernando, as we have found over time, and as you have noted, these blades seem likely Solingen produced products for Spain and Portugal during the 18th century. The broad lettering with these mottos, often misspelled, and the crosses or various marks suggest that much as many of the products, certain blades and markings were meant for certain markets. It seems that for some reason, the examples marked 'SAHAGUM' are often spelled 'SAHAGUN", and these from what I recall, often ended up in the Continent, although I have seen examples Spanish Colonial. I have seen blades with this name in broad lettering with different spellings on either side. Clearly these are German commercial products as noted. With this being the case, it would seem the use of this style crucifix cross was intended to appeal to the market(s) for these blades, rather than being associated with a specific unit or group using these swords. With my personal affection for Spanish/Portuguese colonial weapons, and profound weakness for cuphilts, you gotta know I think this is a beauty!! All the best, Jim . |
rose and crown mark
Old 28th March 2011, 08:51 PM
Posted by: napoleon Member Join Date: Jan 2011 hello all i was wondering if anyone knows anything about a rose and crown mark on a hunting sword blade.would this be english? regards napoleon . |
Old 30th March 2011, 03:25 PM
Posted by: Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Hello and welcome to the forum, Could you possible show a picture of the stamp? I am not very good with European stamps, but there are other who are, and they may be able to help you. . |
Old 15th April 2011, 07:52 AM
Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Not being a collector of weapons, but of edged tools, in particular the billhook, I can give some background to this from a different perspective. Early edge tools were made by the individual smith, for local use, and were probably never marked, other than possible decorative or symbolic markings - usually stamped with chisels and serrated gouges. If the smith was one of a group, or had a wider market, then some form of idenification was used - usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised. In the UK iron and steel tools were often marked in the late 18th century and early 19th with three individual letter stamps - forename, surname and location of the smith. Later, c 1830 - 1850, individual word stamps were used, e.g. JOHN, FUSSELL, MELLS - sometimes stamped upside down, or in the wrong order. Edge tool makers were often also cutlers in the larger centres such as Sheffield, and adopted the trade or guild marks on their edge tools as well.. By 1850 machine cut stamps were being used which allowed all the information to be stamped on in one go... Most edge tool makers also used some form of trademark to denote the quality of their tools - the Crown was used by several as a mark of quality (e.g. by Gilpin, Brades and Swift) probably a reference to best Crown Steel as used by scythe and sickle makers. A simple recognisable mark was of great advantage in a time when much of the population was illiterate - so many larger European edge tool works also used them, athough in France the vast majority just used a name and town, e.g. ALEXIS A ORLEANS.... Tools made and used in the centre, often Alpine, European countries (Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Northern Italy and Hungary - often previously part of the Autsro-Hungarian Empire), often also have decorated blades - which are believed to be symbolic, e.g. to ward off eveil spirits... (missing attachments) . |
1 Attachment(s)
Old 15th April 2011, 07:55 AM
Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Italian edge tool makers marks (from Roncole e Pennati by Nani Monnelli) http://www.ciao.it/Roncole_e_pennat...onelli__1720751 . |
Old 15th April 2011, 08:01 AM
Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Note in 15th century Germany the armourer was often also the edge tool maker.... The following illustration of Niclas Schweitzer (Nicolas the Swiss) who died 18 June 1504. He was an inmate in an almshouse for retired craftsmen in Nuremberg Germany; one of two that each took 12 brothers. The first set up my Konrad Mendel in 1388, the second by Matthew Landauer in 1511. From 1425 until 1806 each brother had his portrait entered into the house-book, often with a portrayal of his craft. Note the axe and cleaver to the right of his shop window, the spade at the left and the spears in the centre.. (missing attachments) . |
1 Attachment(s)
Old 15th April 2011, 04:07 PM
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Originally Posted by Billman ... usually simple marks in the form of a punch the smith could make himself, e.g. cross, star, heart.. Marks were also used on tools such as scythes as a form of quality control so that the individual workers who made that particular blade could be recognised ... (Quote) Like in this Portuguese example? . |
Old 15th April 2011, 10:19 PM
Posted by: Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Yes, although in this case it seems to be decorative rather than for identification (of course it could be both).... Now for the $64,000 question - tool or weapon?? To me it is a very nice early example of a hedging bill - this type is common throughout Europe - I have examples from Wales and France, but they are also found in Spain, Italy and Croatia... Known in Portugal as a foice, in Spain as a roçadora, in France as a croissant (also a coujard) and in Croatia as a rankun - the shape of the blade varies from region to region, but the back hook to push loose branches back into the hedge is common to all types... A few illustrations.... (missing attachments) . |
PAGE 7 MISSING. POSTS #181 TO #210
. |
Old 19th November 2011, 04:06 PM #211
Posted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Good addition Denis . . |
Mark in a polearm
1 Attachment(s)
Old 24th November 2011, 01:32 PM #201
Psted by: fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094 I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P. Would be much obliged for any ideas ! .. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? . |
Old 25th November 2011, 05:55 AM #213
Posted by: TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 . |
Old 29th November 2011, 01:43 AM #214
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by fernando This is a mark punched in an Italian Bisarma (Roncone) said to be from the XVI century, in discussion here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...9094#post129094 I wonder whether some of our members is familiar with this mark, apparently a stylized P. Would be much obliged for any ideas ! .. Maybe someone with Armi Bianche Italiane by Boccia & Coelho ? (Quote) . Thank you for adding this Fernando and I appreciate its being added here for the benefit of our study of markings. As has been indicated by Michael in the original thread it would seem most likely that this would be from the workshops of Peter Pogl in Thorl, early 16th century. He was armourer for the Emperor Maximilian. In Italy a majescule P surmounted by a crown in known 16th century, very much the period for these gisarmes. . |
Old 29th November 2011, 02:00 AM #215
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by TVV To add to the thread, I am attaching a photo of a GENOA mark on a blade, hilted with a Sinai/Negev bedouin hilt. Pictures of the entire sword are available here: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showpost....42&postcount=16 (Quote) Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread. The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them. This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure. These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name. . |
Old 30th November 2011, 12:51 AM #216
Posted by: TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you for posting this here Teodor, and I really appreciate having these various examples of markings added to this thread. The status of the Genoa marking as an indicator of quality on trade blades which travelled widely through many cultures trade networks has been long established. In earlier times the familiar sickle marks (dentated half circles) became associated with Genoa as the origin of the blades bearing them. This was primarily due to the fact that the name Genoa was often placed between these double arcs...it seems actually the arcs were more of a guild related symbol and blades from a number of North Italian centers carried them. Genoa was primarily the port of departure. These blades and thier markings profoundly influenced other blade making centers such as Styrian and later becoming the well known 'gurda' markings of blades in the Caucusus. Solingen often used them along with other marks and symbols. These double marked 'Genoa' names are seen on usually East European sabre blades, which often entered Arabian trade routes and were highly favored. In this case, these are clearly native applied on a well worn trade blade, but reflecting the long standing admiration for blades carrying this famed trade center's name. (Quote) Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus? Teodor . |
Old 30th November 2011, 01:49 AM #217
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Originally Posted by TVV Thank you Jim. The blade as far as I know (since it is not in my possession) does not have any other markings. Could it have been made with no markings initially, if we are to assume that the markings were applied at a later stage, or is it possible that this is a native blade as well, for example from the Caucasus? Teodor (Quote) Hi Teodor, As far as I know there were numerous blades from Caucasian areas and Solingen issued as blanks and were often marked by vendors, importers etc. in trade centers as received and mounted. The very incongruent arrangement of the lettering suggests of course somewhat inept copying of earlier similarly fullered blades from East Europe with the dual Genoa marks. These blades might have entered at many points into the Red Sea trade sphere, and could have been passed around for generations much as kaskara blades and takouba blades were. All the best, Jim , |
Gurda
Old 30th November 2011, 08:47 AM #218
Posted by: Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,409 Jim, Interestingly enough Marian Glosek "Miecze srodkowoueropejskie X-XV w. was mentioned by Berber Dagger in a swap forum. I thumbed through the book with a little more interest after this post surfaced again and found within the pages and pages and pages of trade marks from the X-XV centuries, of real interest is the back to back cresents like the Gurda marks except that the 'teeth' are not present....it is seen in figure 53. My mind wanders to fanciful places sometimes but perhaps it is an earlier EU guild mark that developed to what it is with the teeth. Gav , |
Old 1st December 2011, 03:05 AM #219
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Thanks so much for the input Gav, and well placed thoughts on the development of these marks, which seem to be shrouded in mystery as to thier actual origin and development though North Italy seems the most accepted region. These also occur in varied configurations in many Italian blades, most of the arcs do seem to be dentated however. Good to temporally travel to fanciful places....often there lurk the answers ! All the best, Jim . |
Old 9th December 2011, 02:16 AM #220
Posted by. Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 The arm extending from the cloud brandishing a sword is a decorative device often seen on blades of 17th and 18th c. and came up in a concurrent thread (diamond design in hilt) while discussing certain similarities in motif corresponding to arcane symbolism. The tarot art showing the 'wands' (suit of clubs) has an arms extending in this manner with a wand. Any other examples of this arm and sword device and thoughts on what it might represent.....associations to tarot type symbolism? . |
Old 24th December 2011, 09:22 AM #221
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 For those readers interested in the use of the Greek cross in varying forms on early blades and often inscriptions from as early as medieval period..please see "European Bladed Takouba" on the ethnographic forum. The topic had been cross posted on the European Armoury forum as well, but the discussion has developed on the ethnographic. While always hoping more data will be added here on examples etc. I will try to add updates as well. Most important to realize is that these crosses, as well as the 'cross and orb' are devices which were added to blades apparantly talismanically. In earlier times crosses were added to scabbards of swords to protect them from about Charlemagnes time, and the practice seems to have moved to the blades as well. These were typically inlaid, often with yellow metal either brass or copper, and while often part of inscriptions or devotional phrases either opening and closing or singly, they apparantly became used independantly. The first illustration is the blade of an apparant 14th century sword with the type cross known in heraldry as the 'cross crosslet'..stated to actually represent four Latin type crosses together. The second is on the blade of a remarkable takouba posted by Iain in the thread noted, and the heraldic term for this type of forked end cross is known as 'fourchee' (forked). While the markings compendium attached in next illustration states date of 1590 for the marking, it was clearly used centuries prior to this 'recorded' date. These compendiums of markings seem typically to reflect known marks from actual collected specimens of weapons and not particularly to specific makers in most cases. This is because these kinds of 'magical' or 'talismanic' devices were widely used in conjunction with other markings and or inscriptions not necessarily indicative of a specific maker. . |
Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork. All the best, Jim . |
Makers Mark
Old 7th April 2012, 05:20 PM #223
Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. Makers Mark: Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany Carl Eickhorn, Solingen, Germany changed their name three times and their trademark (Maker Mark) at least four times between 1865 and 1972 CARL EICKHORN (1885- 1886) CARL EICKHORN & COMPAGNIE (1886-1921) CARL EICKHORN WAFFENFABRIK (1921-1972) . |
Maker Marks
Old 7th April 2012, 05:23 PM #224
Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. Maker Marks: Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company Weyersburg, Kirsschbaum & Company, Solingen Germany (commonly referred to as WKC) changed their company name at least three times between 1883 and 1970 WEYERSBURG, KIRSCHBAUM & COMPAGNIE (1883-1930) WKC STAHL-UND EISENWARENFABRIK (1930 - 1950) WKC STAHL-METELLWARENFABRIKHANSKOLPING (1950 - 1970) . |
Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons
Old 7th April 2012, 06:25 PM #225
Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. Here is Pg. 106 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons Examples of blade-maker marks Pg. 109 of Wagner's Cut and Thrust Weapons . |
Markings - Johannes Wundes
Old 7th April 2012, 06:30 PM #226
Posted by: DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California. P107, Wagner, Cut and Thrust Weapons "The markings on a blade made by Johannes Wundes (1560-1620).. King's head Imperial orb Passau wolf . |
pril 2012, 06:40 PM #227
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Thank you Ibrahiim for your kind words toward this thread which truly has had great input over the years, though could certainly use a great deal more! I'm glad it gets the traffic it does regardless, and always hope the contributions which have been placed here have been found useful by other researchers. Regarding the Shotley Bridge Sword Co., this is quite a complex topic, and actually begins early in the 17th century with German sword cutlers who had come to Hounslow Heath mostly from Solingen. Some cutlers from Birmingham are known to have joined them there, but by about 1660s most of the Solingen makers had returned to Solingen. It seems only a few examples are known marked with Hounslow lettered in the inscriptions, and there are a number of examples of swords marked with the 'Passau wolf' but no other markings associated. The famed maker Peter Munsten as well as Johannes Kindt (later John Kennett) of course marked and inscribed blades accordingly. Munsten is better known for his cabalistic images on blades, but by 1660s returned to Solingen (according to Aylward, 1945). By around 1687 Hermann Mohll and some of the descendants of the Hounslow workers, along with newly immigrated Solingen makers formed a sword making center at Shotley Bridge in County Durham on the Derwent River. By 1690 blades from Shotley Bridge were being sold at a warehouse in London, but the enterprise was temporarily ceased when Hermann Mohll got in trouble with importing German blades ironically, and closing down sometime on or before 1703. Mohll reopened in 1716 (as Hermann Mohll & Son) and the business moved to Birmingham around 1832 from Shotley Bridge (the forerunner of Robert Mole, the famed maker who later was acquired by Wilkinson). There is some evidence or suggestion of crossed swords being used by the firm but I have seen no evidence of examples of blades with such mark. There are walloon hilt swords with blades marked in the fullers SHOTLEY BRIDGE from the time of the Monmouth Rebellion and Marlborough Campaigns but no specific symbolic markings I am aware of. This is an excellent question Ibrahiim, and I hope the data I have compiled is of some use explaining more of what these blades may have had on them. There is considerable material on these German swordsmiths in England in both Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, along with the somewhat irrelevant mystery of the Hollow Sword Co. which seems to have been more a real estate venture than sword enterprise. All best regards, Jim (Quote) Salaams Jim, I bumped into a peculiar reference in the Met Museum of Art archives about hollow swords and it appears that swords were actually made by "The Hollow Sword Blade Company" with a hollow blade filled with mercury so that the weight on thrusting was transferred down the blade to the tip therefor giving extra weight to the momentum... To source this reference simply tap into web search Swords From The Dresden Armoury from which I Quote "One learns, for example, of the Hollow Sword Blade Company which was chartered for the professed purpose of making hollow swords with running mercury inclosed to gravitate to the point when a blow was struck and so increase the weight and momentum of the stroke". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
Old 10th April 2012, 03:48 AM #228
Posted by: Jim McDougall EAA Research Consultant Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Dave, thank you so much for adding the excellent views of Wagner's references and the data on the Solingen makers, most pertinant in this thread. Ibrahiim, thank you for the reference to the intriguing "Hollow Sword Blade Co." which has become a most interesting conundrum in the study of the German swordsmiths in England during the late 17th, into the 18th c. This brings back great memories of research years ago into the lore of weapons, especially the tales of mercury filled blades. This idea was part of the fanciful notions of these times which dealt primarily with the 'steel apple', purportedly an iron weight which was fashioned to slide from heel to point of a blade on a rod along the blade. I recall research for an author who was trying to locate an example of such a sword for a novel set in 17th century Scotland. Apparantly the tales of this peculiar feature seem to have derived from the romantic tales of Sir Walter Scott who mentions this in one of his stories. The concept was carried further as I recall by the early biographer of James Bowie and his knife, mentioning the feature on a knife he had handled. No substantiation could be found for any of these weapons, but numerous mentions seem to have reflected influence between authors. The same concept seems to have been perceived by writers in the Victorian period who must have drawn from these notions, and an 1859 reference refers to 'quicksilver in the back of a sword' but no evidence of actual swords with this supposed feature to increase dynamic force of thier cut. They do mention the Walter Scott reference to the 'steel apple', which of course suggests the association in concept. In actuality, the term 'hollow' refers to the German trade secret of the machinery to roll out 'hollows' in thier 'Kolichmarde' type smallsword blades, giving them the distinct three or four fuller cross section. It had nothing to do with fanciful notions of mercury in hollowed channels in or on the blade. While the German sword producing firm of Hermann Mohll was in fact created to make swords, they were actually smuggling these 'hollow ground' blades into England and finishing them there, resulting in legal issues. To complicate things more, the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' appears to have been created around the same time purportedly to make 'hollow blades' but actually was more of a financial syndicate involved in purchasing forfeited Itish estates. According to Aylward and other writers, there is no evidence of blades from this venture, let alone any of the fanciful mercury filled blades, as far as I have ever discovered. Still, it is a great topic and we have had fascinating discussions on it and related topic over the years. Thank you so much for adding it here!!! All the very best, Jim . |
pril 2012, 03:32 PM #229
Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Originally Posted by Jim McDougall Dave, thank you so much for adding the excellent views of Wagner's references and the data on the Solingen makers, most pertinant in this thread. Ibrahiim, thank you for the reference to the intriguing "Hollow Sword Blade Co." which has become a most interesting conundrum in the study of the German swordsmiths in England during the late 17th, into the 18th c. This brings back great memories of research years ago into the lore of weapons, especially the tales of mercury filled blades. This idea was part of the fanciful notions of these times which dealt primarily with the 'steel apple', purportedly an iron weight which was fashioned to slide from heel to point of a blade on a rod along the blade. I recall research for an author who was trying to locate an example of such a sword for a novel set in 17th century Scotland. Apparantly the tales of this peculiar feature seem to have derived from the romantic tales of Sir Walter Scott who mentions this in one of his stories. The concept was carried further as I recall by the early biographer of James Bowie and his knife, mentioning the feature on a knife he had handled. No substantiation could be found for any of these weapons, but numerous mentions seem to have reflected influence between authors. The same concept seems to have been perceived by writers in the Victorian period who must have drawn from these notions, and an 1859 reference refers to 'quicksilver in the back of a sword' but no evidence of actual swords with this supposed feature to increase dynamic force of thier cut. They do mention the Walter Scott reference to the 'steel apple', which of course suggests the association in concept. In actuality, the term 'hollow' refers to the German trade secret of the machinery to roll out 'hollows' in thier 'Kolichmarde' type smallsword blades, giving them the distinct three or four fuller cross section. It had nothing to do with fanciful notions of mercury in hollowed channels in or on the blade. While the German sword producing firm of Hermann Mohll was in fact created to make swords, they were actually smuggling these 'hollow ground' blades into England and finishing them there, resulting in legal issues. To complicate things more, the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' appears to have been created around the same time purportedly to make 'hollow blades' but actually was more of a financial syndicate involved in purchasing forfeited Itish estates. According to Aylward and other writers, there is no evidence of blades from this venture, let alone any of the fanciful mercury filled blades, as far as I have ever discovered. Still, it is a great topic and we have had fascinating discussions on it and related topic over the years. Thank you so much for adding it here!!! All the very best, Jim (Quote) Salaams Jim, Thanks for that. I have dug up some interesting stuff on this subject and would like to park it here for reference please. Initially I thought that the blades part was some fanciful cover plan for the estates company but it seems they had a design to fill blades with mercury ... but when they tried it it apparently wasn't feasible... - The Hollow Sword Blades Company ~ was set up in England in 1691 to make sword blades. In 1703 the company purchased some of the Irish estates forfeited under the Williamite settlement in counties Mayo, Sligo, Galway, and Roscommon. They also bought the forfeited estates of the Earl of Clancarty in counties Cork and Kerry and of Sir Patrick Trant in counties Kerry, Limerick, Kildare, Dublin, King and Queen's counties (Offaly and Laois). Further lands in counties Limerick, Tipperary, Cork and other counties, formerly the estate of James II were also purchased, also part of the estate of Lord Cahir in county Tipperary. In June 1703 the company bought a large estate in county Cork, confiscated from a number of attainted persons and other lands in counties Waterford and Clare. However within about 10 years the company had sold most of its Irish estates. Francis Edwards, a London merchant, was one of the main purchasers. SEPTEMBER 28th On this day in history in 1720, the South Sea Bubble finally burst. The South Sea Bubble was an economic phenomenon which saw intense speculation in company shares and brought ruin to many private investors. In 1711, the earl of Oxford and others formed a company, known as The South Sea Company, to trade with Spanish colonies in South America. Britain was at war with Spain at the time but, it was hoped that soon the war would be over, and profitable trading could begin. The war ended in 1713, but the peace treaty was not favourable to British trade, only allowing one voyage a year to the colonies. The company made its first expedition in 1717 and made moderate profits, but the directors of the company had guaranteed a dividend of at least 6% per annum, and therefore the company was losing money. The directors tried to maintain confidence in the company by asking King George I to become its governor, and then formulated an ingenious scheme to boost public confidence in their enterprise. They proposed the takeover of the National Debt. Holders of government stock would be offered shares in the South Sea Company in exchange for their bonds, and the South Sea Company would become the sole government creditor and banker. This scheme was readily accepted by Parliament and public confidence in the company was restored. Investors believed that this company must be making vast profits in order to promote this scheme. In fact, the company was only exchanging its own paper shares for paper government bonds. The value of the company’s shares rocketed, and by the end of 1719, had reached a value of £1,000 for each £100 share. Many other companies sprang up in the wake of this seemingly lucrative enterprise. There was a company to ‘fix quicksilver and make it as soft and malleable as lead’. There was a company ‘to insure marriages against divorce’ and one ‘for the planting of mulberry trees and breeding silk-worms in Chelsea Park’. One company was formed ‘for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage but no one to know what it is’. The formation of companies to undertake fatuous schemes was not new at that time. The South Sea Company’s bankers were The Hollow Sword Blade Company, a corporation formed to produce hollow sword blades, but which had found that difficult or impossible, and had branched out into banking, issuing bank notes with designs of sword blades. In an attempt to reduce the competition for speculators’ money, the South Sea Company issued writs against many of these bogus companies. The courts ruled that many of these companies were indeed operating illegally, and added that the South Sea Company itself was not above suspicion. Shares in the company dropped at once. The directors attempted to allay disquiet by raising dividends but investors asked where the money was coming from, and stock prices fell further. The company tried to issue more stock to raise money to keep the business going but prices fell again. In September 1720, the directors called a shareholders’ meeting to try to restore confidence but prices fell further. On 24th September 1720, The Hollow Sword Blade Company, closed down, leaving the company with no funds and no business. On 28th September 1720, the directors announced that the company was to cease trading. A subsequent investigation revealed that the whole scheme had been operating illegally. The directors had misappropriated funds for their own purposes and had made vast profits on speculation. They had bribed the king’s mistresses to persuade him to accept the governorship of the company. Furthermore they had deliberately misled the public and the government as to the true value of the company. Parliament subsequently passed The Bubble Act which forbad the setting up of a company without a Royal Charter. As opposed to Hollow Grinding~ Blade cross-sections for typical grinds 1. Hollow grind-a knife blade which has been ground to create a characteristic concave, beveled cutting edge along. This is characteristic of straight razors, used for shaving, and yields a very sharp but weak edge which requires stropping for maintenance. Also used on ice skating blades. 2. Flat grind—The blade tapers all the way from the spine to the edge from both sides. A lot of metal is removed from the blade and is thus more difficult to grind, one factor that limits its commercial use. It sacrifices edge durability in favor of more sharpness. The Finnish puukko is an example of a flat ground knife. A true, flat ground knife having only a single bevel is somewhat of a rarity. 3. Sabre grind—Similar to a flat grind blade except that the bevel starts at about the middle of the blade, not the spine. Also named "Scandinavian Grind", it produces a more lasting edge at the expense of some cutting ability and is typical of kitchen knives. Also sometimes referred to as a "V Grind", made with strength in mind and found on tactical and military knives. 4. Chisel grind—As on a chisel, only one side is ground (often at an edge angle of about 20 – 30°); the other remains flat. As many Japanese culinary knives tend to be chisel ground they are often sharper than a typical double bevelled Western culinary knife. (A chisel grind has only a single edge angle. If a sabre grind blade has the same edge angle as a chisel grind, it still has two edges and thus has twice the included angle.) Knives which are chisel ground come in left and right-handed varieties, depending upon which side is ground. Japanese knives feature subtle variations on the chisel grind: firstly, the back side of the blade is often concave, to reduce drag and adhesion so the food separates more cleanly; this feature is known as urasuki.[2] Secondly, the kanisaki deba, used for cutting crab and other shellfish, has the grind on the opposite side (left side angled for right-handed use), so that the meat is not cut when chopping the shell.[3] 5. Double bevel or compound bevel—A back bevel, similar to a sabre or flat grind, is put on the blade behind the edge bevel (the bevel which is the foremost cutting surface). This back bevel keeps the section of blade behind the edge thinner which improves cutting ability. Being less acute at the edge than a single bevel, sharpness is sacrificed for resilience: such a grind is much less prone to chipping or rolling than a single bevel blade. In practice, double bevels are common in a variety of edge angles and back bevel angles, and Western kitchen knives generally have a double bevel, with an edge angle of 20–22° (included angle of 40–44°). 6. Convex grind—Rather than tapering with straight lines to the edge, the taper is curved, though in the opposite manner to a hollow grind. Such a shape keeps a lot of metal behind the edge making for a stronger edge while still allowing a good degree of sharpness. This grind can be used on axes and is sometimes called an axe grind. As the angle of the taper is constantly changing this type of grind requires some degree of skill to reproduce on a flat stone. Convex blades usually need to be made from thicker stock than other blades. This is also known as 'hamaguriba' in japanese kitchen knives, both single and double beveled. Hamaguriba means "clam shaped edge".[1] It is possible to combine grinds or produce other variations. For example, some blades may be flat ground for much of the blade but be convex ground towards the edge. Lastly a fragment from; STATISTICAL AND SOCIAL INQUIRY SOCIETY OF IRELAND VARIED ORIGINS OF THE IRISH PEOPLE. By T. U. SADLEIR. [Read on Friday, 21st April, 1933.] Quote" Quite a number of the Cromwellian grantees did not remain in Ireland, some returning to England in the disturbances of 1688 and others settling in Jamaica or Barbadoes. Many of their holdings, as well as a good many estates forfeited in the Williamite confiscations were bought up by a land jobbing company known as the Hollow Sword Blade Company. This corporation was originally engaged in the manufacture of sword blades, hollowed out to contain a quantity of mercury, which, falling to the inside of the point at every blow gave added force to the stroke". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:10 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.