I'm posting these images here too in the hope of bringing more light on the "type"

Stylistically, it is of the subgroup, simply refined in a different manner.

This is in the Malaysian National museum in Kuala Lumpur.
I have not delved into the accession of this piece. It may offer insights.

I think this is a possibility. Certainly Hindu, then Buddhist, then Islamic influences came to the Philippines long ago, and probably merged in styles without knowing their origins.

Also the "gates" may have their origins in the vegetable motifs in Islam and earlier. But I do agree that the top one looks like the gate found on some Islamic prayer mats.

As for the "wings" I still hold that they are more the stylized "eyes" found on danganan, junggayan, and 17c kris pommels.

Great carvings and good to have them with twist cores. :D

Great analogy Battara. The Mihrab came to mind when considering the motif... there may be something in the repeated pattern on the pommel, like stepping through doors.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449537

So...whilst cleaning out my phone of photos I planned for Instagram, I came across this and it hit me... these Brunei and Sarawak hilts very much resemble the upright and floral nature of many of these Sundang hulu, including the silver collar and rings.

I see the resemblance as a direct link culturally, and with the distinct Tausug canted pommels too,(from a general shape point of view), and the long time interactions between nations, along with the settling of Northern Borneo by the Tausug.

Some of these Tausug pommels also carry rather interesting related motifs too...

Gavin

A little further visual interpretation from my perspective...

Given the Malay/Borneo and Sulu flavour of these Sundang, a Sarawak Sadap and Latok to consider...

Again, when viewed like this, and in particular the Sadap, it is akin to the two examples initially presented, those with the carved ivory pommels.

Further to this, and by no means are silver rings new to silver sword handles, but I pay particular attention to their placement in relation to the upright ancestral Jawa Demam types Sundang hilts with the three rings and where they are positioned on the hilts.

I think it is more than a little casual coincidence and perhaps there is a whole lot more to this that first meets the eye.

Now, to add a little more spice to the discussion, although I am writing to myself too often with the fascinating post, have a look at this stunning old Kampilan and consider others in your collections with what the description within the link provides, where my idle ramblings are concerned...
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec..._As1954-07-194

Battara touched on the alignment and crossover of faiths and worship in the regions and I had my doubts about Garuda being the correct term for these and part of me still does to some degree, perhaps it is spot on.

Correct me if I am wrong but Garuda could travel between heaven and earth, somewhat makes sense to carry this symbolism on a weapon which can take one from earth to "Heaven", but alas I don't feel that was the intent though this speculation of mine...

Interesting are the Biblical references within the script on the Kampilan and that Garuda is the enemy of all snakes... does that include Satan?
Perhaps these hilts are some very real spiritual protective motifs :rolleyes:

What I found interesting was the last Angel mentioned. Azra’il (Azrael, angel of death). When looking at the typical Kampilan hilt, there is a coin to one side... is this the coin that covers the eye when one makes the trip to the afterworld, an eye one side, a coin or token the other, symbolising the ability of the iconography to transcend both planes perhaps?
Not a stretch given the importance of the text on Kampilan in the British Museum and just how old the coin on the eyes of the dead is and how far and wide it spread...

But alas, I ramble down this road because the Museum's Biblical translations and the notation of both garuda and Jawa Demam which is the same quandary found in this thread... several lines of faith aligning in the most unusual places...
Further to this, I present the Latoks because of the Floral eye which feels very deliberately placed, which is like the Kampilan eye position discussed/pictured, and where they are both concerned, they even have the line shapes leaving the eye...

Perhaps these hulu are Garuda... I do not know, I only wanted to share my thoughts about the plausible thoughts behind the iconography of ancestor worship in these regions that share common trade and ancestors.

Gavin

Gavin,

This is a great addition to the discussion!! Again I am only making a hypothesis that the hilt form could be a representation of Garuda… but the hilts you’ve brought forward definitely add interesting possibilities. As a reminder the Garuda symbolism travels through SE Asia in different forms and the merging of imagery specifically in the Southern Philippines area is well documented. The question becomes more interesting the further we dig… and that’s what is compelling for me personally.

Please let me know when you are able to put eyes on your newest example so we can really dig into its forms and symbols!!

SS

SS

It is still a few weeks away... will share more when in hand.

With regards to the Coteng "wing" reference made earlier, this is what I mean, seen in the images.

Perhaps one of our Thai readers can offer the translation?

A Tajong drawing showing the same area, which is a large carved panel on the Tajong.

The last image, similar side panels are found on this Jambi Penghulu... apologies for the orientation of the image, just how it uploaded...

Gavin

I'm surprised no one picked up on this for the archives... an absolute stunner in every respect.

Here’s an odd one.
Small in size. Brass / copper alloy blade. Carving on the hilt could be a Tree of Life motif.

Hello Albert,

You already added pics of this piece earlier in this thread. ;)

Here's another example with heavily stylized pommel (from Lonna's & Dave's collection: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17894).

Regards,
Kai

Here's an example with a really diminutive pommel.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Gavin,

I agree that this is a great piece.

However, I believe it does not belong to this thread as the pommel is of a different style: Clearly this one is crafted in a highly decorated sarimanok/kakatua style.

Regards,
Kai

OOPS!

Hello Kai,

I respectfully disagree with regards to exclusion.

Perhaps these images grouped together, they may highlight the importance of this example within context of the discussion.

Apart from the side panels highlighted, looking at the IFICAH example in detail there is a tiny little Bunja Tanjong flower where one may expect an eye to appear, (Refer to the other Sarawak carvings shared and the British Museum Kampilan notations).

In isolation it may mean nothing more than this is a Malay states thing, but seen in the last image, similar appear on the top faces of these Kris/Sundang too, and also within some side panels.

A recent discussion with a fellow collector pointed out that these may also be the Catmon flower seen in Visayan carvings, yet it seems 8 out 10 Visayan carvers do not include the Pistil in their motifs, nor is a weapon of this type typically found there.

Gavin

Hi Gavin,

This is a very interesting observation that you make. I think that this picture is the most compelling evidence that you presented.


The positioning and shape of the "flower" in each example is very similar indeed. Your thesis that the familiar kakatua pommel (or sarimanok as some call it) on Moro kris hearkens back to an earlier representation of garuda will set the cat among the pigeons so to speak. :D

An innovative idea and worthy of discussion, perhaps in its own thread.

Hi Ian,

I've not yet any foot in either camp as to what the symbolism actually is, only what I see with what was previously presented and how I view iconography within this thread.

I think the visual references in a number of threads I've provided do suggest that it could well be... but I make the propositions because I am interested in insights about such things and to promote discussion.

The truth of the matter is, without a time machine, we will never really know... however discussion is important to develop idea and look at parallels within regions that share different cultures.

Like that Biblical inscription on the Kampilan, although drawn from the Koran, a very atypical thing to find as was the notion that it's hilt could potentially have been a Garuda representation, just as these hilts/pommels could be... it's all chicken/egg stuff though...

A good perspective, a discussion that has been ongoing for two hundred years, perhaps longer.
https://ayalamuseum.org/collection/1...%20god%20Indra).

Looking at some of the humanoid "Jawa Demam exotic hilts presented, could they actually represent angels and the floral motifs and tree of life motifs or mirror panels be symbolic of paradise.
Gabriel is particularly noted in the Koran and is the most important angel in Islam. The Angel Jibreel’s main responsibility is to communicate the Words of Allah to His prophets.
That would be pretty potent symbolism to carry.

More thoughts on the subject.

Gavin

Hello Gavin,

Ok, I agree that there may be related/same motifs/etc. found in different types of hilts. Ian's suggestion to discuss such overarching concepts in a separate thread may help to avoid detracting from the pommel type discussed here. OTOH, it may be considered fair game here as well since this hilt type's underlying meaning probably can't be established without discussing missing links from all over the archipelago.


Such a motif may well hark back to pre-Christian as well as pre-Islamic times. Back then, the coastal areas of all southern and central islands will have been settled by pretty much the same seafaring peoples of Malay origin.

Again, the same motif can be found throughout Indonesia, too. Considering the variety of flowers represented in, for example, Malay iconography, I doubt though, that all of the stylised 4-petaled flowers necessarily refer to the same flower (nor possibly have the same meaning).


I'll try to address your earlier contributions later this weekend...

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

I'm in the OTOH basket... they've already been presented and the type require context. Further to this, from the type presented, there have been other related type thrown in because of regional crossovers.

Indeed, almost anything is plausible within the time and place parameters.

Where the Malay states are concerned, I note The Spirit of Wood and the Bunja Tanjong flower. See Spirit of wood, page 10 and numerous other references in the index.



Thanks for the ongoing discussions.

Just a little side line/note with the variations of these Kris/Sundang types seen within thus far.

I look at it like the Bugis Keris hulu.

I know this is not the keris forum, but entertain me for this post as purely an indicative representation.

I see within types, more a metamorphous of what they represent over an evolution of the type through time.

Point in case these three ivory Bugis Hulu.

When I see these three in context, which do cover most "general" aspects of the type, in a spiritual context of life's cycle, I see #1 growth upwards, #2 Maturing, eyes forward and growth/seeking, #3 Full maturity, the weight that it carries, and the decent back to where it all started...

Idle ramblings of a mad man, but perhaps something like this "metamorphous" can be applied to the type under discussion, perhaps even a status indicator of "lineage" within the region, an earn your stripes type of thing... from the simplest timber types of the worker bees, to the established and capable man about town with fine ivory carving and twistcore, to the elder who survived it all, made his way to the top and shows his wealth in precious metals like Datu Piang and no doubt others before him.

Edit note **Notice they all have the side "wings" within their carvings**

Just because, and that I enjoy talking to myself... I get the most sense that way :-P

Spirit of Wood, page 128... Patani 19th century... abstract motifs aside, the shape of the figure is certainly there....

Still looking forward to your insights Kai....

Apologies, Gavin - too much on my plate and just forgot to follow up.

Thanks, Gavin, for keeping this going!

Yes, it has been my working hypothesis, that these hilt styles might likely be related. Not sure whether one developed from the other or possibly both from any earlier ancestral style.

There are strong historic links between the (especially eastern) Malay Peninsula, Brunei, and Bangsa Moro.

Regards,
Kai

A question of age
 

Another from the Thai Museum with similar but simple features.

Given the upright Royal Ligor types known too, I'm curious to know what is the oldest datable tapak kuda hulu type?

Hello Gavin,

From the pics, it looks like a Sumatran keris that just ended up in a Thai museum. Exotic arms in general did quite commonly find their way into foreign rulers' collections.

The Melayu tapak kuda hilt doesn't seem closely related with the Moro hilt discussed here nor the latter's likely relative from NE Malay Peninsula. All appear to be quite old styles.

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

I understand the hulu style discussed to be of Sumatran Origins that spread to other regions and became embedded in society.

The Upright Royal ligor styles also carry similarities.

The hulu styles are found on a keris type associated with the headsmen, ruling class of the regions.

Specifically looking at the crown on this last example and more overly the Spirit of Wood example, there is a remarkable likeness to several facets of these archaic Sulu hilts.

The one above for example, it is akin to the manner in which the top of the ivory ones in the very first post, albeit lacking a dorsal fin.
This is seen to within the precious metal Sulu types too...

There is deeper meaning to everything is centuries past.
Artistic licence aside, nothing was random and all art carried symbolism.
I am certainly curious as to the deep meaning of these crown like carvings which in turn may pave roads to further discovery.

There is a lot to ponder.

Gav

Gavin,

I wanted to take a second to thank you and others for the wealth of thought and effort put into discussing this topic and for the willingness to explore. I apologize for being MIA and will try to continue to at to the discussion as I find new examples and evidence. I still lean toward a root based outside the traditional muslin influence, but obviously a firm answer may not ever be attainable. However, there is joy in the journey!!

Another popped up on social media recently, though to drop it in here.

Does anyone know the significance of the three binding rings around the base, waist and shoulders of these?

A previous thread
 

A previous thread relating to one of the first in this thread presented here for discussion.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4443

Seems a long time member previously owned it.

I'm definitely on board with Michael's Sabah assessment.

These continue to be discussed offline where more ideas and data are passed about.

I see them thus far as Labuan influenced too when looking at the top motif on the crown, it is a reoccuring theme from the region, just as that design is also seen in Sabah weaving too.

Some aspects of the motifs are seen in old Bugis drawings and carving which make sense given the large sea faring nation and the Maritime Silk Road running through Indonesia and SEA, but overall the style is unique.

Brunei being the longest power base behind the regions and the English disruptions in the 19th century, it makes sense when seeing these on both sides of the fence so to speak, as I believe there are a couple that saw service under the British navy, and others, as noted at the start of this thread as being taken from Sulu pirates on the Sabah coast lines by Naval staff on various vessels

Just bringing a couple of past links with some relevance together.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=268885

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15307

Other links of the material seen within this thread and others seen within.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2661

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14672

Well, i hate to sound so mundane, aside from their beauty, aren't they functional, for a better grip on the hilt?

I agree David. However, function can have some elegance to it.

Thanks Gents.

I can appreciate this given space between 4 fingers, and be swayed to consider this but when you consider examples such as this;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=13

There is no practical application like grip enhancement?

And this one in Kino's collection, does the odd spacing really provide that much of a better grip when the hooked pommel provides just as much?

Idle thoughts thrown out for discussion.....

Solved?
 

So, a long long road digging, looking, reading, speaking with others and today this presents whilst researching a Kampilan.... there mostly goes my Sulu origin thoughts about the hulu....

First, another old thread of Alberts unique Chevron Kris dressed in the same manner as the metal hilted one he has. LUCKY and diligent Chap!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang

Albert's other stunner

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2661

Battara's Datu Piang Kris

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=piang

One Gustav discussed a while ago. One Chris had I believe.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

The golden one I was lucky enough to obtain.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=68

A photo of Datu Piang, from the University of WI I believe.
A couple of zoom details clearly showing his entourage both wearing and bearing Kris with this hilt type.

SO, with consideration to the Holstein Sulu example, and others of the similar type, found in other materials, provenanced to the Sulu and Sulu coastal areas of Borneo... what's the relationship regionally and historically.
I understand the Maguindanao people are spread far and wide. It is the common thread of timeline of this design influence that intrigues me.

PS, THAT whalebone Kampilan and the stunning scabbard with carry handle may need it's own thread! Simply stunning....

Gavin,

I think the gentleman front and center in your picture is Datu Ali (genuine Maguindanao royalty), while Piang was a commoner (albeit very powerful). In which case, most of the retinue probably belong to Ali. Technically, Piang was subordinate to Ali (hence Ali in the center of this picture). I recall reading somewhere (maybe 20 years ago) that the Maguindanao Sultanate was closely linked to the Brunei Sultanate in the late 19th/early 20th C..

Ok Ian.

Ali dies before this photo was taken.

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpress...&brand=ucpress

https://maguindanaopride.wordpress.com/tag/datu/

Certainly looks like Datu Piang to me.

One of his known personal Kris is also being carried in the image.

The sheer depth and breadth of trade Datu Piang conducted throughout the the entire Sulu via trade merchants was vast... recent reading about the power and influence, tied with maritime entities and loyalties he had, could very well explain why these hulu are found as far and wide as they are.

I have to agree with Gavin on this one Ian. That does not look like Datu Ali (see pic below) in the center and since he had been dead for 9 years when that photo was apparently taken (1914) it couldn't be him.
BTW, that looks like an entourage not to be trifled with. ;)

Thanks Gavin. I guess the date of death eliminates Ali. :D Datu Piang is certainly present, standing on the right of the central figure. These pictures were often carefully staged, with the most locally important person in the middle. I will need to go back and look at my Datu pics from that era. Ali and Piang were raised together in the Sultan's household.

It will be interesting to see what you turn up there Ian.

I've some speculation about the young figures front and centre.

Datu Piang had many children to many wives. Data I suspect can be inaccurate, but within reason. I read that he had 19 wives & 34 children, although only a few reached any prominence.

Those young men front and centre could be family, as was the norm within Datu circles to appoint family, and provide with rank and title.

Given that the youth to the left, within the photo above, carries a kris with same hulu design as the Kris being carried by the sword bearer, I suspect he is very close to Datu Piang.

When I look at one of the better known image of Datu Piang from 1899, and the young boys brought forth for the photo, clothed as Datu Piang is, and a third child behind Datu Piang, it could be these two boys later in life who are pictured in the group. The gent to the far right could be Datu Piang's Pandita???