Well KuKulz, i'm sorry that my questions are driving you you deep sighs... :rolleyes:
When you speak of your knife in hand, which one are you referring to, the one in post #31 or #26.
Mr. Maisey has just pretty much expressed why i am leaning towards utilitarian purpose so i won't repeat his words. Certainly any edged blade can be used to do harm, but i don't get that as the main purpose of most of these blades. The much larger grooved variety might be different. :shrug:
I actually brought up the difference in the two "types" of siraui to question if these are not in fact two completely different knives with different names. The name game can get quite ridiculous at times, but one thing we know for sure is that established writers have not always gotten them exactly right at times.

I think that David is correct when I handle my two pieces. Like I have written before I tend to say that my pieces are utility knifes.
But when I look to the second piece from Michael in post # 15 and the two from Charles in #19 it could be good possible that these ones was used as weapons. :shrug:

I can't say anything for how people cut food in Indonesia, but I do know that my mother always cuts smaller vegetables with the edge held up and the thumb pushing the veggies onto the edge. I personally think it's a crazy way to work, but unlike me, she's never cut herself using a knife that way. Effectively, it turns her hand into an anvil-style clipper.

If you don't have a clean surface or a cutting board, processing food in hand makes a lot of sense. If someone wants to experiment with cutting veggies with a sirau, I'd suggest cutting celery or something similar, because it doesn't tend to break suddenly, like a carrot, so the edge won't suddenly jerk towards your thumb.

Best,

F

It's only that you state a suspicion that it is not a fighting knife at all and provide no evidence or possible evidence for that. But then go on to imply I have no the capacity to imagine a utility role for it. Make a statement, back it up - that's all I'm saying. It doesn't make sense to me for you to take a stance, and then ask the opposing persepctive to come up with support for your arguement. :D

for the past few posts, #31, my bad about the confusion.

From the people I have talked to it seems they are called the same thing. But it is true that writers have not always gotten it right and locals call it what they will, and such things can change with time too.

For this topic of the 2 forms, I think Sajen says it best:
I agree.

Is anyone here in touch with weapon experts on Sumatra that could tell us if there is a naming difference? Or perhaps they are called the same thing but used differently?

:shrug:

The one I have in #31 doesn't have a chisel grind. It has an edge on both sides. Do the 90 degree choil, non-fullered variety have a chisel grind?

OK, now this makes sense. These do sound like non-combat purposes/ways to use this knife. That's it, I'm going to save up and get one made in Indonesia and test it out myself! :D

Now I see why Vinny had so many questions about the siraui! I have a Minangkabau one that is absolutely meant to be a weapon. The handle and sheath are beautifully carved and the blade is chased. Being a practitioner of Minang silat, it could absolutely be used as a weapon in either grip. I can see many ways it would integrate seamlessly in that manner.

I'd rather not get into specifics about use, but based on its size, I believe this kind of blade would possibly have been intended for srikandi (female warriors), a la Minang kerambit. The men would have preferred the sewar, tumbuk lada or keris. I can see how the larger ones could have been battlefield weapons, however. I have a very large modern Javanese one that again is absolutely intended for combat.

It could be used as a slasher or a stabber. It could also very well be used for utility. Cutting plants at their base with one with the edge up in forward/hammer grip would be much more natural than with the edge down.

North of Minangkabau, the Acehnese have long had their rencong, which is definitely all combat, so using an edge up or edge in fighting knife is not really unusual for the region.

Can wee see a picture from this one?

Regards,

Detlef

Unfortunately I have it in storage: it is a modern piece, but nicely done. I'll see if I can rescue it tomorrow. :)

I would also be interested in seeing it...of course, i am not sure what a modern version of this blade type can tell us about the original and traditional purpose of the knife. The Javanese siraui you have you say is a modern piece. What is the age on the Minangkubau piece. There is probably more to be learned from older versions that were made when blades were more likely to actually be used in a battle scenario than from any modern versions.

Also the ones that Lew and KuKulzA28 are trying out are smaller versions of this blade. That's probably the reason why they prefer another kind of grip. "Size matters" with knives and grips.

Michael

I agree that an older piece would tell us more about traditional use. From the dress of the Minang ones I have seen in this thread and my modern one, it seems highly unlikely they were meant to be simple farm or household tools.

I sent my silat guru in KL a message to see what he thinks of it: it's not something we've discussed (yet)!

The Bisayans of the Philippines used a small knife called “Baia” also known as “Pisao.” It was used for cutting and thinning rattan strips. It was not a weapon. Reference to this tool can be found in Part 1 Book 3 of “Historia de las Islas e Indios Visayas” (1668) written by Francisco Alcina.

As with many blades throughout the Nusantara, it is entirely possible versions existed both for use and for combat. Knowing where Kuk's little Javanese piece was made (they only make weapons), it would have been a request from the silat community in Indonesia. I think this form was used both for weapons as well as utility knives, much like the golok, kerambit and celurit.

I picked up my siraui earlier and will take pictures when the sun is up.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m17tzelLRS1qcmmjy.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m17tzr9yEB1qcmmjy.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m17u03l0co1qcmmjy.jpg

Still waiting to hear back from my guru. The forge that made this siraui in West Sumatra also makes Minang kerambits: this leads me to believe they are commonly considered to be weapons there too.

Nice knife but it is much too small for this category.
The size of a (classic) Siraui should be almost like a bread knife.
Maybe the apples and oranges-syndrome of size etc. is the reason between the this confusion?

Michael

Agree with Michael, it has the form of a siraui but is much to small. Here for comparison a picture from one of my ones in hand.

Regards,

Detlef

Yes Detlef,

Yours is the regular size. It's more obvious with your picture than giving measurements like I did.

Michael

And like I hold it in my hand (I am left handed) is IMHO the only way to handle it.

Detlef

Yes, the siraui depicted in this thread are huge in comparison! Perhaps the smaller versions were originally meant for women a la Minang kerambit. I have yet to see an older one in this size though.

Due to the nature of the grip, it feels most comfortable in the positions I showed, but I think it could very well be used in any grip. My larger Javanese one is about 40 cm overall: I'll see if I can take some pics of it. It looks more like a kuku macan.

I am quite fond of this little knife either way. :)

Thread is open for further discussion :).

Bump :cool: