That's an interesting theory. But with regard to pattern, I think that upside-down pommel matches this better. You can even 1:1 the "mouth" of the drawn naga and circular design above its head, with the outline of the upside-down pommel itself.

We all see what we want to see i guess. Frankly i don't see that much of a match with your naga drawing and to my eyes this pommel clearly looks like a bird.
Also, let's remember this is a 3-dimensional object. Comparing this to a 2-D drawing doesn't show the full extent of the shape for a good comparison. If we look at these pommels from the top and image that we are looking up at the bottom of a bird's body in flight it also clearly looks like a bird.

We can always look at the culturally-accurate depictions: in this case, the original pattern as conceptualized by Bangsamoro hands. Here's an excerpt from the book "Ukkil: Visual Arts of the Sulu Archipelago" by Ligaya Fernando-Amilbangsa (2006). These ukkil patterns existed in Bangsamoro infrastructure and grave markers as early as 1600s (some sources say even way before this date).

As you can see...the resemblance is murky if you flip the kris pommel. I would have agreed with you that it MAY represent a sarimanuk if it's the right way up (blade pointing down).

You'll also notice how closely related the naga and sarimanuk patterns are.

I'll prefer to stick to the naga interpretation though- because one of my kris pommels is obviously a snake-head.

David,

I think the relevance of this part of the discussion is significant IMHO. As we are in agreement that the symbol that we are calling either a wing… which is my personal belief, or maybe an eye if you are seeing the hilt as the Birds head with a crest and a beak. Either way the commonality in both the “Garuda” kris and the traditional kris can assist us in creating working hypothesis to test regarding some of these questions.

For example if we see the symbol as a wing(my starting hypothesis) then the directionality of the overall structure is potentially identifiable as the Garuda kris is only viewable as a form with the blade tip pointed down. It also has a definable front, back, sides and top. The wing symbols are clearly on the “sides” of the structure. This then gives us an point of reference for both the traditional Moro structure and the Garuda form. “If” the meaning for the symbol and the location are defined then the other symbols under consideration can be defined more reliably.

This pic below may allow us to continue that discussion productively.

Obviously the Garuda form is more figurative.

Another form for comparison.

Also when wielded the beak here is oriented to the cutting edge of the first blow.
What would a bird defend or attack with, the beak, I think.
Just a thought.

Sorry to throw this in guys... but all PH figural hilts should be viewed with the blade pointing down, not up. Whether it's Luzon, Visayas, or Mindanao, all figural pommel samples you'll find are oriented that way. There's no reason for the kris pommel to be different or "flipped" for viewing.

I agree and believe the Garuda kris form confirms this orientation. However, I also agree with David’s assertion that the symbol in the side of the form is most likely a wing.

With that defined we can begin to examine the other symbols on the “Garuda” kris that diverge from the more traditional Moro form. This is where I hope other forum members can assist in deciphering their origins and meanings, with the hope that leads us closer to the group of smiths and people that venerated this kris form.

Below are pics for the front, back, and top of two of the kris I own for discussions.
And while I am labeling this “Garuda”, forum members should feel free to present alternative or conflicting hypothesis. Delving into the symbols and their origins is my line of focus.

Study in Malay wood carving
 

To better establish the linkage back to the cultural influences from the Hindu/Buddhist contacts with the Malay area I am supplying a paper on studying the carvings of the area. Given the overlay of the Muslim influence perhaps we can see the potential for the Garuda as the source for this interesting form.

Hindu/Buddhist sculpture examples
 

Here are a interesting pieces with floral motifs that are similar, however the Islamic art from the same time periods also have similar motifs.

Mr SanibelSwassa, I talked with a Malaysian keris collector and an Iranun friend who's also based in Malaysia. According to both of them, while the Indomalay-looking hilts that we have may seem related to keris, they're only roughly reminiscent Jawa Demam form; but symbolically, they agreed that our hilts represented a 'dragon'- in other words, a naga. And- this is most important- that they were made in the Philippines, and not elsewhere in the Malay archipelago.

When I asked about the standard and junggayan kakatua form, they said different people viewed it differently; same as in Sulu and Mindanao. Some will say it's a naga, while others will say it's a garuda. To them, it can be either, or both.

As supporting evidence that this indomalay-style hilt was made in the Philippines- I noticed that the insignia carved into my kris butt pommel perfectly corresponds to the recurring okir structural pattern of a torogan, the traditional Maranao royal residence for nobility. It was reserved for the datu or sultan. This pattern is exclusive to the Bangsamoro.

Xasterix,

That is a fabulous direct origin connection! The Okir on your piece and the corresponding wood lattices is a near prefect match. Do you know what building that picture was taken from and or the buildings rough age??

Thank you for sharing both the information you gathered from your Malay source and the detailed Okir pics!

Very excited! At the same time I’m having a difficult time finding matching Okir or sculpture reference to the symbol on my kris. The number 8 is strongly represented in the three layers of the “flower”. I still have some leaning toward a connection back to Hindu/Buddhist roots on this symbol… but that a work in progress.

Thanks for the kind words sir. That specific torogan is called "Bantog-a-Unaya" located in Lanao del Sur; most of the royal house is in ruins unfortunately. It's estimated to be over a hundred years old.

I'm attaching a picture from Baradas (1968) study on okir, there's a Maranao okir motif there that corresponds with the carving on our kris pommel.

Tree of life
 

When inquiring about my copper alloy bladed Kris, one of our friends mentioned that the carving on the back of the hilt somewhat resembles the tree of life. He then forwarded a photo of a Tausug tapestry of the Tree of life that resides in the Philippine National Museum. Xas I wonder if carving on top of the hilt of your Kris could be interpreted as such. Would you classify your blade as hailing from Sulu?

Photo of the Tausug tapestry.

Halloo sir Albert, in my eyes the pommel carving looks closer to the Maranao torogan's pattern.

Kino,

Thank you so much for sharing the tapestry pic!! That’s a great reference piece. I would agree with Xasterix that his Okir is a direct match back to the royal line used as shown in the pics he shared. Which is an incredible find as to providence. I am excited by the sharing for resources and ideas.

Hi sir, can I see the butt-pommel of your krises? I might come upon more insignias, I'll let you know if any of those match.

Here you go! Let me know if you uncover any interesting similarities with other Okir.

Here’s another hilt to throw in the mix.
Too bad a detailed image of the hilt is unavailable.

Great pic! Wish we knew who had that bad boy!!! Did you find that on this forum?? I think I’ve seen that pic before, but don’t remember from where.

I believe I hijacked the photo from one of the discussions here on the Forums.
I think it came from an old book printed in France.

A complete, high quality, and possibly early form of this hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13785

Thanks for this, was just looking at this yesterday. There's remarkable similarity regarding the carving placement (different okir though) between that kris with mine.

Wow… another great thread! Your comments in that original thread linking back to a possible Chinese connection to this form is compelling. It also ties into the know time period placements and the potential origin of the hilt form. Obviously it continued to migrate to some extent, but these seem to be far more rare that the common forms.

Thank you so much for the light pointed in another direction!!

It is an interesting quandary indeed.

I've reached out to others who are members here too to discuss these types. Hence my interest in securing what I did this week.

I'm on the fence with a few things, all due to the lack of hard factual evidence.. or at the very least a solid clue to pursue....

Strong Malay influence to my eye, Sulu influenced, for sure, this points to the direction of the provenanced example you secured, the northern coast line of Borneo...

It was certainly a small enclave given the known numbers of the type.

To me, clearly a level of hierarchy/wealth within the locality given the broad variations of hulu quality.

I don't think blade type, given the trade and regional positioning of the area, can be taken as gospel as to original origins of the type.

I feel the devil in the detail lays in the hulu and perhaps the sampir, given that these are what is displayed openly from a cultural point of view. Visually reading this in the day to day context said exactly what it needed to.

Just a little food for thought...

Gav

The best I can do with the image from the book...hope it helps

Well the detailed pics from your new piece will definitely expand the discussion!! My thoughts on these pieces are far from definitive but I still feel the distinct subset of this form is significant.

P. Holstein,Contribution à l'Etude des Armes Orientales, Paris 1931

Coming back to this image and the previous discussion about what the hulu actually could be... I see this image has not been presented to the previous discussion....I've not delved in the the accession of the item, but the iconography is clear to me even if not regionally specific.

The other image, another from online that to my eyes fits within the subgroup too.

My perception of the icon
 

I see the icon as such... see annotations within the image.
I see Ian sees it the same way... maybe it is because we are all upside down in AU?
But, TBF, you only have to look at the shadow it casts too....

Off on a tangent, a big swing off tangent
 

Ok, so, off on a BIG tangent I go, and don't be mean now, the parallels are purely visual speculation but hard to ignore visually.

I got thinking about how I see the Datu Hulu iconography, as seen above with the annotations.

I thought then to delve in to the the headrest image I shared and its point of origins being Cenderawasih Bay... certainly a Sarimanok to my eyes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenderawasih_Bay

I went down a totally unfounded but very possible relationship in so far as cartography and the iconic Datu hulu goes, and overarching ancient spiritually belief of this magical bird, as represented by ... The PNG land mass which bares a striking resemblance in new maps and old maps of the period...

Is there something in this mythologically that we are missing?
I've no time today to go further down this rabbit warren in interest... perhaps others can?

From a cartographer point of view, is this very object discussed visually... tell me it's not :shrug:

Gavin,

Wow… the cartography angle is totally wild and I SEE it!!! That would be almost nuts as the makers of the blades could hardly have been able to have conceptually known the similarities. What a rabbit hole!!! I love it!!

Pareidolia can be very strong, but even so that is eerily similar.

cartography is ancient , so, it may have been possible...although one would have to wonder why they would have chosen that particular profile among all the islands... if not because Papua New Guinea resembles a Kakatua or Cockatoo .

Now the circle really round :D;)

As Werecow notes, it is an ancient art...

When looking at this map and it's age and date of "publication" in Manila, is it much of a stretch that they knew of the PNG shape? Records show the Malay raided as far as the west coast of PNG.... this may even explain why Twist core was seen as far as Maluku.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan...or._Y_Capn.jpg

As a side note, I had some time to read last night and the head rest I supplied the image of is reputed as being a rooster :shrug: I can see some likeness but as the same time, some aspects don't line up stylistically to my mind.

To be more accurate, the "other rooster" or sarimanok. It is a stylized mythical rooster from the Moro peoples. So the pommel of the mid 1800s and later resemble more the sarimanok head in the minds of many.

Again I would call attention to the representations that are both common and distinct in this form.

1. The floral pattern on the crown of the “Garuda” form are not found in the other Moro Kris hilts, yet the blades on these archaic seem to have elements that would tie them back to the Moro craftsman.

2. The wings on the side profile of many of the pieces I’ve located are typical of the more common forms. This seems to be a linkage that should not be ignored.

3. The front and back of the form have a possible reference to the gateway to “heaven” or the afterlife.

I am personally still draw to a blending of the majority Islamic faith and a mix of Chinese Buddhism or remnant Hindu faith that was still present in the area. But definitely open to thoughts from other members.

I'll spend some time aligning my thoughts later in the week, but at face value, and no doubt the crutch of the matter that muddies the origins question for me is that I see Sulu motifs, Malay motifs and Boreo motifs within many aspects of the hulu and the dress these are sometimes found in... finding that consistent common and undeniable theme within all seems quite the challenge... equally, most blades as you note are distinctly Moro/Sulu... the adventure continues

This aspect reminds me somewhat of the pronounced part of Malaysian/Patani Coteng and to a much lesser degree, the side panels on the Tajong which are more vegetation motifs and not pronounced.

At the same time I see a metamorphous in process through various examples, not unlike the various stages other Keris hulu forms are found in other regions.

Another little side track... so many unique things to the regions .. there is this old thread of an interesting pommel and the image Battara provided...

Whilst not purely of the type, it is interesting to note the upright ancestor like position, and that it looks to be gold from the enhanced photo, also carries what appears to be two seperate rings on and below the pommel, rings that appear to have grip straps running either side of the hulu... complete with very interesting side panels too... Datu Piang and a most interesting hulu.

Note the shirt he is wearing too... very much akin to the Mirror Panels Gustav brought to the forum some time ago...

And this linky...it shows more of the type....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=162113