Ren Ren, THANK YOU!! I was having difficulty getting accurate translation of that panel. This makes good sense considering the context of the Eight Trigram rebellion,
Very much appreciated,
Jim

Jim, this is my pleasure!

I agree that this inscription in context indicates that the sword belonged to the anti-Qing rebels.
Serge

Having handled, researched, and restored many of these "extreme rarity" swords since the 1970s, I must disagree. It's easy to assume from the tons of crappy fakes floating around that the genuine old ones are very rare, but not necessarily so. Many older blades have been remounted, at later periods and even in modern times. Museums such as the Met, and the Peabody-Essex Museum (Salem, MA) have extensive collections of antique Chinese sabers and swords (not all on display, many have to been seen in the depot), so a study of these, and comparison with those seen on the market and in private collections, can give a serious researcher a good idea of what's the real deal, what's BS, and what's been monkeyed with.

And contrary to what you state, it's not all that difficult to distinguish pieces made for the 19th cent. curio trade from those of earlier periods, there are notable qualitative and design differences. If you "have very little knowledge about antique Chinese swords" perhaps this might explain your perception. It's as though I, who have little knowledge or appreciation of keris, would try to venture opinions on what is old and important versus the new stuff being circulated in the contemporary collectors' marketplace.

I agree at 100%. I have several Chinese swords and they are all in between 1850 and 1920. The 1900-1920 swords and the so-called boxer rebellion are not difficult to find. The problem is when people don't know they mix everything. Look at the post 36:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=36

Two swords completely different, but they "look" the same of course...
Plus don't rely on museums, they do huge mistakes (Royal armouries museum for example)...

After many Oops's here and elsewhere, I've learned:

1. Always take Museum and Auction House item descriptions with a grain of salt. Their source may have just repeated a label he was given by a previous owner, or 'Improved' on it to make the item more attractive. Or the 'expert' just guessed.
2. If it looks too good to be true, it probably isn't.
3. Caveat Emptor.
4. Many 'Experts' aren't.
5. Google is not your friend.
6.If an Item has been inventoried, photographed and shown publicly for over a century and well documented, and other examples exist from reputable sources, it just might really be an antique.
7.They made 'replicas' well over a hundred years ago for collectors and those who travel.
7a. Sightseeing has been a popular sport from millennia or longer.
7b. People also commissioned copies of stuff they admired. Especially if they were unlikely to actually be used when the fit hits the shan, like French (& English) senior officers 'Mameluke' sabres and US Marine officers.
7c. Some fakes are better made with better steel than the originals.
8. The blurrier the photo the more likely it's a fake.
9. Always carry a knife. (Gibb's rule #9)
10. Sometimes I forget to read my own rules.
10a. There are more numbers to add to this list I haven't found yet.

The opinion I posted above is what I learned from a Chinese curator.

A few years ago, I wanted to sell two "19th century" jian swords, and I thought I can fetch a better price selling them in China with a Chinese auction house.

So I contacted one of the largest auction houses in Beijing, and one in Hong Kong asking them if they would like to take my swords. They both declined, citing problems with authenticity. So I asked for details and the guy from Beijing (who was also working with a big museum there) explained me what I essentially summarised above.

So I ended selling them with an European auction house.

Boxer Rebellion took place in 1899-1901... and their main weapon of choice was the dao.

Yes indeed. The two posts just previous, by Kubur and Kronckew, aptly point out the hazards of relying on "experts". Relying on Chinese auction "experts" has special shortcomings. The antiques collecting and trade in the PRC is a comparatively recent revival after having been decimated by the fanaticism of the Mao years. Destruction of the "Four Olds", including both things and ideas. (Have you seen the movie "The Red Violin"? The China segment of the story is as close to history as cinema can get.) Keep in mind that this is a country with a regime that limits access to knowledge and tries to control the historical narrative.

When I mentioned my decades-long research into this field (others too like early firearms ) it did not involve just looking at pictures and going through catalog cards in museums. It took getting permission to handle all this stuff in person, lots of it, taking a ton of notes and photos. Discussing with curators, and also looking at depiction in period photos, art work, etc. Comparing styles and craftsmanship with that in analogous applied arts of various periods. Working with colleagues who read the lingo a lot better than I, determining in the process that there are such documents as gazetteers, palace inventories, military production specs, and so forth. Getting the "big picture" from the historical narrative -- about trade, conquest, fashion. Looking at developments in fields such as the metalworking and furniture industries going back to Ming times and even before for an insight into raw materials production and procurement. A lot of geek stuff like this. You find out soon that the Boxer Rebellion is not the huge benchmark that most collectors seem to think it is.

Just look at Donald LaRocca's magisterial book on Tibetan arms, Warriors of the Himalayas... Before this was published, the comment from most collectors was, "is there any info to be had about this field?", having known only Stone's Glossary and perhaps Egerton's Handbook of Indian Arms. Think about the amount of digging that Mr LaRocca had to do to pull this off.

There is a Harvard PhD, H H Kang, whose thesis on Korean matchlocks is groundbreaking. Surviving examples of the guns are relatively few, thanks to disarmament of the country by the Japanese and the massive losses of the Korean War. But by means of broad-ranging and thorough research he has come up with an amazing body of info, and I can say from personal correspondence that he isn't done yet.

Another thought on context; I've read that the Jian was a 'scholars' sword, for their self-defence. Presumably this was a subject they also studied to be effective with it.

...But what else did 'Scholars' study, aside from learning the tens of thousands of characters and combinations of them.

The Chinese Government was based on Confucianism. The system required testing, written and oral exams, not only for entry, but for advancement to the next higher level. If you didn't pass the exam, you stayed at your current level. No rising to your level of incompetence, you stayed at your last level of competence. The study of the Jian was considered to take a lifetime. The Military preferred the Dao, which you learned fast, or died in battle. The Dao was also part of a weapons system with shields, armour, pole arms, artillery, missile weapons, strategy and tactics, not needed by civilians who liked to dance in well regulated patterns, the Dao was for killing, the Jian for showing off.

Kronckew, I dunno if I would agree, I would argue for fun that the Jian is More deadly. If you were going to encounter a person with any armor at all, picking out a spot and puncturing would probably work better than cutting. the tapered blade makes the jian look more effective at blocking than a saber, the jian has a larger range for defense and a larger amount of movement for attack , it is also double edged. The Jian may need more education and skill which in turn would also make it more deadly, I would say its the smart choice, not showing off. maybe the Dao was more suitable for the militia because as you said it was easier to use etc.

Context?
 

Well, the foray into Confucious and the Chinese civil service is quite a stretch, isn't it? What the examination system had to do with the jian and its use isn't exactly clear, but let me think about it.

What this does sound like is the sort of thing I've heard over many years of gun shows, collectors' meetings, and auction previews. Folks taking a bit of knowledge and extrapolating willy-nilly. Have heard earfuls regarding European swords and swordsmanship. People whose only exposure to traditional Western armed combat is Olympic fencing and Hollywood costume dramas expounding on eight centuries of swordplay in Europe. And how the sword in Europe essentially became irrelevant with the steady improvement of firearms. Irrelevant? I would recommend J. C. Amberger's The Secret History of the Sword for its analysis of how the use of cold steel has remained a vital and serious field of study and training down to the 20th cent.

Another case is the understanding of the small-sword in relation to its predecessor, the rapier. It is true that small-swords as part of a diplomat's formal dress and the regalia of the Académie Française are symbolic props, but to dismiss these weapons as fashion statements or "all for show" misses the point that they originated well back into the 17th cent. when swordsmanship was an important skill for civilians of a certain class. And that it is the result of a few decades' worth of transition from the true rapier, which would imply that functional parameters connected with fighting styles were at play. Funny thing, I remember a heated discussion I had with a gent who claimed that the smallsword was not a real weapon, it was only a piece of male attire like cufflinks or a tie-clip. And that European swordfighting techniques couldn't hold a candle to Japanese since in the West, it was mainly a sport and not real combat. Oh, I should mention that the "expert" who was lecturing me was a kendo practitioner (and a weekend duffer, at that). Last I checked, these guys do their thing with fasciculated strips of bamboo, not steel blades. Sport or combat?

Thanks Philip. Much appreciated if you can bring Confucius, the Chinese civil service, and the examination system into focus with regard to the jian and its use. Wayne's comments are a bit "fuzzy" to me.

Thank you Philip for the very interesting information!

Reading your explanation I remembered another very interesting aspect:

the museums in China have very small collections of Chinese porcelain.

And this is because of two main reasons:
1. throughout the whole history of China, porcelain was a main export product and was exported in massive quantities;
2. during Mao's "Cultural Revolution" porcelain has been considered as a symbol of aristocracy and decadence and was systematically destroyed.

So I was thinking that maybe the "Cultural Revolution" thing may have impacted the jian swords as they also were a symbol of aristocracy. :shrug:

Ian, after thinking about it more, I also can't help but find his comments to be, as you say, "fuzzy". There seems to be no clear nexus between the jian and Confucian ideology (essentially a framework governing social structure and political morality) or the governmental structure itself.

Since Wayne does comment on the role of the jian (straight double edged) and the dao (single edged, either straight backsword or curved saber), how about an historical overview to put all this in some sort of developmental context.

1. The first hilt weapon (with longish blade) to hit the scene in China was the sword (jian), made of bronze, first appearing during classical antiquity, during the feudalistic Zhou period prior to unification. It predated the use of long single-edged blades and for awhile it was the only game in town as far as swords went.

2. The backsword, zhibeidao (literally "straight backed knife") came into use towards the end of the Zhou, first in bronze then later in iron and eventually steel. It was used alongside the jian and became increasingly popular during the consolidation and unification of the feudal states into a centralized empire (Qin Dynasty, 3rd cent. BC).

3. During the succeeding Eastern and Western Han Dynasties, which more or less coincided with the late Roman Republic and early Empire, both weapons remained in use, although the backsword gradually became more important in a military role.


4. During the medieval dynasties, both blade types underwent a design change, in terms of hilts and scabbard suspension, influenced by the swords of pre-Islamic Iran, whose culture helped shape that of China in terms of the sciences, cuisine, music and arts (Buddhism also reached China via western Asia from India, also accounting for these cultural linkages). This "new" style Chinese sword mounting was also adopted by the Koreans and Japanese, which explains the considerable outward similarities between 7th-9th cent. swords from Iran, China, and Japan seen at such institutions as the Met and the Shô-sô-in (Nara, Japan).

5. Later in the medieval period, during the Song Dynasties (10th-13th cent.) the jian hilt changed again, to a form not much dissimilar to the familiar shape known today. The backsword continued in its military role but its worth noting that in the 11th cent. military compendium WUJING ZONGYAO the double edged sword is listed as one of the close-combat hilt weapons as well.

6. The saber (peidao) with its CURVED single edged blade, makes its debut on a large scale during the short-lived Mongol Dynasty (13th-14th cent.). From the researches by Kyrill Rivkin et al, we are all no doubt familiar with origins of the saber among Eurasian steppe nomad cultures, and its spread to surrounding "sedentary" agricultural- and commercially-based states by way of the migration and conquests of Inner Asian peoples from the Avars to the Timurids.

7. By the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) the saber gained in importance in the military, and the backsword declined and practically disappeared (surviving only in the Himalayan kingdoms of Tibet and Bhutan, and to a limited extent in Korea). The jian increasingly became a civilian weapon, somewhat analogous to the rapier in Europe at about the same time.

8. This pattern of use continued into the last imperial dynasty, the Qing (Manchu) , 1644-1911. Manchu guards officers were known to practice with the jian for sport, and commoners in the more unsettled provinces and districts of the empire carried short-bladed jian for self-defense or more nefarious purposes according to local gazetteers and official documents of the era. The Kangxi emperor (r 1682-1722) had to deal with complaints from provincial officials about armed civilians causing mischief with various weapons, but his memoirs indicate that trying to disarm them was probably more trouble than it was worth since as foreign interlopers, the Manchus were wary of discontented subjects being goaded into rebellion.

A survey of the considerable numbers of jian in museum collections, and of the historical literature, can tell us something about the usage of these weapons, as correlated to their design.
A. There are a number of blade configurations from various periods that point to distinct functional parameters -- Long, narrow, thick, and notably tapered blades, almost reminiscent of rapiers though without the extreme length, popular during the Yuan and Ming Dynasties. Somewhat broader cut-and-thrust blades with fairly aggressive distal taper. Slightly narrower ones with more obtuse edge geometry. We do know that there were a number of fencing styles taught during the late imperial period, and there is probably a correlation.

B. Distinct forms of blades and hilts were reserved for ritual or votive swords connected with popular Taoist practice. The blades are typically inlaid with emblems and inscriptions not found in weapons in Group A. The religious significance of the double-edged sword is also strong in Buddhism, and nowhere is this more apparent than in neighboring Japan, where the ken has been reserved for use as temple regalia, often lavishly mounted in very Indic or Tantric-inspired motifs

C. Touristic curios, widely produced during the end of the Qing through the pre-WW II years, which are non-functional (blades often not tempered), gaudily decorated in stereotypical designs.

D. Equally non-functional but plainer versions made for exercise, beginning in the early years of the Republic, to go along with a revival of traditional martial skills like boxing and archery. This degenerated into the showy "wushu" techniques promoted by the Communist regime after 1949.

You're most welcome, Marius!

It might be useful to remember also that the anti-aristocratic attitude predates Mao, we see it after the 1911 revolution that toppled the monarchy. Just like in France in 1792 and Russia post-1917. A lot of articles associated with the Manchu rulers were destroyed -- mandarins' uniforms and hats, insignia and flags, official seals, and (sadly) documents that historians would love to have available today.

Mao's Red Guards targeted ALL antiques. That's why the shortages of objects in museums. Antiques dealers and collectors were harassed, arrested, and on occasion sent to camps to be "re-educated". Because antiques collecting was considered a BOURGEOISE habit, and you know how Communists hate that class!

Funny story -- when I spent a month in the USSR in the 1980s, I took some cigars with me to enjoy, not knowing if I could get them there. What a pleasure, puffing on one in the park, or at a café. Some folks stopped to look -- I thought it's because I'm a funny looking guy with a bald head, but no, it was the cigar. Soviet citizens just didn't do cigars. Someone told me that the prejudice was a holdover from old propaganda associating cigar smoking with fat cat capitalists in their expensive suits sitting on bags of ill-gotten money squeezed from the proletariat!

Cigars you said?!

Was like wearing an infamy badge saying "I'm a bloody capitalist suckling on the blood of the working class"... :)

Probably just because cigars smell really bad. :rolleyes::D

Philip- Your brief history of the Chinese sword is a useful little reference guide. Too bad it is hidden deep in a post based on such a poor, recent example.

I also liked your comments on what people sometimes called "dragon well" swords with the etched dragon and phoenix, and seven etched stars. You mention seeing them brand new in China in the late 70s. My teacher and his wife picked up a couple in China at about that time, and they are recognizably the same. I bought several for not much in the mid 80s and early 90s to practice with, and ended up giving them to friends so I could make room for antiques. Now I see 80s era ones on eBay for many hundreds of dollars, while new ones are still available in Chinatown.

On the original jian in this post, I used to try and be charitable, and say they might be "vintage", but I think that is only if "vintage" is between 10-25 years old.

As for secret societies, I would say they are central aspects of Chinese culture. Most Indonesian Chinese temples have their own set of Kilin dancers, despite them having been being illegal under Suharto. The Kilin societies are also martial arts schools and neighborhood protection groups. I understand it is similar in Taiwan.

My martial arts group got free sake for years in NYC when it turned out the restaurant was run by Chinese Indonesians. We were the boys from the temple.

Conservative or Reform?

Josh-stout, your opinion drew me back to this thread,, as said before sometimes new swords are made to a better quality than the old ones, I found an example of my sword being called a Tai chi masters sword, to my understanding they use battle ready swords for cutting tests.
I still haven't seen any other similar examples except the one in that video and another one with similar fittings not the pommel called 19c which remains for auction. I have seen a recent YouTube video where they talk about all the points of a good Jian besides the balance point, which are all good on my sword to be a user. ill link the video.
I have had a lot of fun with the sword, I can do several spinning hand moves and can consistently hear the hasuji or sword wind cutting sound when practicing cuts. its definitely well enough to be a user in my opinion.
there is signs of age on the blade so
I seriously doubt it is modern or recent, or I think we would see some similar examples on the market, I don't think the functional quality is poor at all, just the finish on the fittings, I heard the Jian sword is meant to break the opponents sword and even cut through amour. anyways its proven to be more unique than any other modern ones I see, and more interesting then the comparable vintage ones that sell for a lot. the fittings may look poor but the sword until thoroughly tested could prove to be good quality, recent, vintage or antique.
I am gaining more appreciation for the qualities of this sword, I would rather it wasn't put down , id bet it would cut in half most other jians I see for sale.

these videos were new on youtube and i found them very informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iac6Ie4snUc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H67oI6pv8U4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvbKzvUm8rA

I no longer believe this one is for sale so ill post some picks. it is the only other sword apart from the one in the YouTube video, that is similar to mine. until recently it was listed with augeo gallery and in 2016 it looks like it was listed with helios, they call it 19c. it has the same scabbard fittings and the guard but without buddha and the different pommel, the blade also looks newer. and is longer.

id love to know what it says, I notice the pommel is one solid piece with the ferrule, where as my Jian is missing the pommel ferrule

These are the opening lines from "Song of the Precious Sword" 宝剑篇 by poet Li Qiao 李 嶠 (654? -714?), included in a collection compiled by another poet of the Tang Dynasty, Cui Rong 崔 融 (653-706).
Lines are broken, missing characters are enclosed in square brackets, line-by-line according to a modern Chinese source.

吴山开，
越溪涸，
三金合冶[成宝锷]。
淬绿水，
鉴红云，
五彩焰起[光氛氲]。

My translation is probably not very good - it is a complex poetic text filled with ancient symbols.
"Mount Wushan opened,
The stormy stream falling [from her] has dried up,
Three metals combined in an alloy [turned into a precious [double-edged] blade].
Tempered in crystal clear water
In the Hongyun (Red Cloud) vessel,
From the five-colored flame (magical spiritual power) [a brilliance of courage (prosperity)] appears".

Mount Wushan is located in Shaanxi Province. Hongyun may be the name of the mountain, or perhaps a proper name, it is not clear. The stormy stream falling from the mountains may be an allusion to the legendary beauty Xi Shi "destroying kingdoms".
The lines engraved on the blade are interrupted - the person who took the sword in hand had to finish them from memory. This is such a graceful Chinese game of education and erudition, widespread among scientists and officials. On this basis, we can confidently assume that the sword was unlikely to belong to a military man or a nouveau riche merchant.

Thank You very much Ren Ren for the great assistance, what a cool translation, I wonder about the alloy.

Yes, that is also a new sword. The yellow orange ray skin is a give away, but also everything else.

Do you see that line running lengthwise? That is a fake forging error. It is supposed to mark where the sanmai edge and body meet. A cold shut, or other similar forging error is the kind of thing that you should look for in an antique, but that one is huge and ugly. It is there to convince the unwary that the blade is sanmai, but is actually a sign saying "stay away".

Take some time to acquaint yourself with antiques in general. Unfortunately Chinese antiques are one of the worst places to start. Almost every Chinese antique you see will be a recent reproduction, and that includes swords. Reproductions from the 1990s are starting to acquire a little age, but they are still reproductions.

To see pictures of actual antiques, you need to go to the websites of reputable dealers who specialize in Chinese swords. You can also look at pictures posted in these discussion groups, if the community opinion supports the posted example as an original.

If you look elsewhere for examples of reproductions listed as antiques, you will find them.

To see a good variety of reproductions, simply look up "antique Chinese sword" on eBay, and look at full length jian with complete fittings.

Every single one is less than forty years old.

Exactly this, there are a number of excellent collections available online from museums like the MET as Philip I believe has already mentioned in this thread, which are a much better starting point. Unfortunately even large auction houses which maybe have realized high prices are not even a good indicator of authenticity.

Here are two more photos of the same blade. I must admit that I like him.

wow , Ren Ren, very nice photos, where did u get them?,, or? are you actually owner :) ???

This sword was discussed at the Russian Weapons Forum a year and a half ago. The discussion was heated and the opinions of the judges were divided :)

P.S. I don't know if the rules allow direct links to other forums?

Excellent points in your post, Josh. I'd like to remark on the one highlighted observation above. Not only the color gives the rayskin away, but the manner in which it is finished is a giveaway as well.

Antique jian with rayskin grips are generally late, from the end of the Qing to the early Republic, although there are exceptions of course. The thing to remember, though, is that in the case of bona fide antiques (and I would consider swords made in traditional style and manner in, say, the 1920s to be antiques since they are part of a continuous tradition going well back into the imperial age), the rayskin on the scabbard is invariably polished, and that on the grip is left au naturel , i.e. in the "bumpy" state that it was in on the live fish, and typically in the natural color as well.

I have seen a few old kid's size swords (very much scaled down in all dimensions proportionately) with polished and colored rayskin to match on grip and scabbard, but never on a full-sized adult version.

I agree with your comments on the one posted previously on this thread. Thanks much for sharing your knowledge and observations as well.