I think you got it!
The boy on the left is holding BSY (Laz Bicagi) vertically and the one in the middle seems to have the same one stuck under the belt: only handle is visible).
Too bad the pic is small! Perhaps, we can contact the buyer and offer him a deal: he will send us larger views and we shall tell him where it is from . Not a bad deal for him, I think :)

Is this any improvement ?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h-yataghan.jpg

I looks to me that all of that central group are holding laz bicagi, except the fellow whose crotch is bisected by the upright one. They seem to be children, in fact. This might explain the "baby" laz bicagi that one sees.

The dresses and the music instrument of the musicians and dancers group it is Pontic, a Greek minority of Turkey. But maybe it could be worn from another ethnic group too.

Here are Ajarians: next-door neighbours of Minghrelians ( Georgian Laz)
http://www.answers.com/topic/ajarians

http://www.karalahana.com/english/archive/music.html

I think it's the same picture...

And here is another one..

I just add 2 pictures of Pontic or Pontian people to see the similarities. But I have never heard that this yataghan was their weapon. They used bitsaqs and kinjals

Well, after all these years that we are looking for clues about Black Sea yataghan, I feel quit stupid I didn’t look closer to my culture!
The pictures of Zifir are very clear. If they lived in Trabzon (Trebizond or Trapezus) they must be Pontians. Or Lazs, but no Ajarians.

This is the best one.
But, honestly, we are seeing 3 variants of the same picture!
The color one was heavily photoshopped, though.
Trabzon is clearly indicated as the locality.
Laz!

Well Done Guys!!

I think we can clearly place the Laz with this weapon.


Jeff

The dress and musical instruments are common to Western Georgians and all other Pontic nations, including Greeks; I would guess these can be Greeks, but I would think Laz is a more likely option. Finally, the border between Georgia and Turkey, which separates Laz and Adjari was established in bloody wars, therefore there is really nothing historic about "adjarian/laz" boundaries - the language they speak is similar and belongs to the western georgian family, however Laz are typically identifying themselves as Turks and nothing else, and Ajarians are identifying themselves mostly as "muslim georgians". There are also some "georgian" colonists in Trabzon, who speak mainstream georgian and came there relatively recently, but their dress is quite different.

new pfoto
 

I have a new nice photo on the subject, a photo of three Pontic Greek guerillas, and one of them has a black sea yataghan.
The problem is that the photo is on a book, i scanned it, but cannot ommit the text arround the photo, so that the photo will be with little enough pixel to post it and be visible.
If someone more technologically advanged can help, i can send him the photo to make it the appropriate size.

Eftihis:

You have a PM ;)

Ian.

I am adding another thread on Black Sea yataghans ( Laz Bicagi, Karadeniz Yataghan.
Andrew wanted to pool them for a "Classic" some time ago.
Andrew, here they are, ready to be pooled.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002625.html

Picture ...
 

Here is the picture from eftihis.

Interesting picture. Is it something like a theatrical composition or a real warrior group ? I wonder ,because the guy on right has a Caucassian style flintlock pistol and a flintlock rifle(the guy on left as well),but the sitting guy holds a later model rifle and is equipped with its ammunitions. If it is a 1880s, 1890s or 1900s picture, I wonder if flintlocks of such an old technology, even older than percussions really continued to be functional so late in some parts of Turkey.

The long Trabzon kindjal the sitting guy wears is very nice. Meanwhile the guy on his right holds a b.s.y. hilt, but I think the scabbard form shows that its blade is not a classical b.s.y but a different form? :confused:

Thanks, Ariel. Got your PM, also.

I'll link this to the "Classics".

Speaking of classic threads, I nominate "Shaver Kool" I & II, and "Ultimate Kampilan (aka 'Look out, Charlie!')." :D

This thread, or for that matter the research and discussion, on these most esoteric edged weapon examples, is indeed classic! :) I know that I have researched them intermittantly since I acquired my first example in 1996. I had seen them illustrated many years before in the 1962 reference "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert, captioned as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Later, I found another reference to these in a 1941 article published in Denmark which listed these as Kurdish-Armenian and illustrated examples in a Danish museum provenanced c.1857 to Trebizond.

Years later Mr.Seifert told me he once had one of these with strange markings but no longer had it. I wish I could have seen those markings!!

The Danish article had noted that these were no longer used and seem to have become obsolete for many years, many being found in out buildings etc.
It seems they had a working life from around mid 19th c. to the early 20th at the latest. With what has been discovered since the important examples Ariel reported in Istanbul is most revealing. I must admit that the complexities involving in understanding the ethnic groups and minorities in these regions are perplexing, but extremely fascinating. The history involved in these regions representing so much cultural diffusion is extremely difficult, if not virtually impossible, for anyone not deeply involved in ethnic study. It is not hard to understand how specific attribution to a particular group would be difficult at best, however it does seem these weapons were indeed from the Black Sea region.It is rewarding to see that the Trebizond attribution is well placed, and corroborates the provenance found in the early research (the data for the 1941 article seems to derive from that of a Hungarian narrative c.1896).

In research I also discovered that examples of these swords were among holdings in museums in Tblisi, Georgia and it would seem that the Laz associations with Georgia and the Minghrelians would well substantiate such presence. The evidence of these weapons being used by the Pontic Greeks substantiates the Trebizond provenance since this is the region, on the Black Sea coast of Turkey occupied by these people. Since the Laz also occupy these regions the use of the form by both groups seems clear.

It would be interesting since we have discovered the proper provenance of these swords/yataghans/knives (whichever) that we return to studying the curious 'horned' pommel, its meaning? purpose? It has been suggested that of course the Turkish crescent was symbolized; that it was a fertility symbol deriving from early tribal symbolism; even that it was to serve as a gunrest in firing for accuracy. Not all of these interesting examples have the 'horned hilt' and some vary in degree....with this, the study of variants would be interesting, but as we know, speculative.

As for the blades, the distinctive needle point remains in question, and its similarity to that of the flyssa draws significant attention ( as seen in the North African associations). Seifert in his book does show the flyssa parallel to one of these, and the parallel is seen elsewhere as well. While the similarity in the bellied blades and needle point is clear, the association is not. These weapons are both latecomers in their forms, and neither provenance much before the 19th century (the flyssa well established by 1827, the BSY uncertain but likely c.1840's).

It is worthy of note that Erlikan has described these Black Sea swords as associated with the Tatars of the Crimea...this feature on Crimean sabres has been well established...the Greek colonies in Crimea are also well established...and the connection between those colonies and the Pontic Greeks in Trebizon seems given. Perhaps the point of the Tatar sabres influenced the point of these recurved sabres of Trebizond.

It would be interesting to discover more on the association between the BSY, flyssa and Tatar sabres and these distinct points.

Also the symbolism or purpose of the horned hilt.

We have discovered a lot on these! Lets learn more !! :)

All the best,
Jim


P.S. Shaver Kool, you're goin' down :)

Erlikhan,
Interesting observation! I do not know the names of these people and the exact date of the photo. The photo is from a book regarding the Pontic Greek guerilla war and uprooting from Pontos during 1920s. It could be a photo from a group that was using whatever they had, or it could be an older studio photo. The description states "Greek guerillas from Trabzon area" However, it could be possible that the photo is older than the 20s, and the wealthiest and more respectfull person which sits in the middle had the means or the authority for the more modern weapon (he also has nicer knifes) and the other were standing withwhatever they had there. MAybe they were all guerillas latter and this is an earlier photo.
Recently, they were on sale on ebay other photos of Pontic Greeks which i attach below.
The first has a date 1898, and the weapons reflect the mix of that era of change! A Martini rifle together with a flintlock pistol.
The second photo shows for sure guerillas on the countryside (their names on the back of the photo) and the weapons are more modern. Nice trabzon kamas always thought!

Wonderful photos, Eftihis. Since some of these photos are studio photos I wonder if some of the archaic flintlock weapons were included there for the purpose of additional decoration? 1898 really is late for flintlock pistols, and the man pictured obviously has access to modern firearms as evidenced by the Martini rifle. Maybe he thought that a pistol with silver decorated butt will enhance his picture more than an unadorned revolver?

Eftihis, in 1920s, fllintlock weapons should be too out of age, just antique pieces even then. They are unpractical and risky to depend on against armed enemies. 1898 sounds more logical,..perhaps.. But studio or countryside, if these are original pictures of period warriors, I don't think these though guys would like to look funny and ridiculous at all. If they preferred to get pictured with flintlocks, it means it was not very odd for their environment. So we can accept flintlocks continued in use upto the last of 19th c. in some far parts of Turkey. I had watched some documentary films from 1921, showing workers in Turkish armory workshops, repairing,sharpening and preparing yataghans to equip soldiers, collected from civilians and brought there in big bunches, any kind of,from ordinary horn hilts to ivory ones at least 40-50 years old in 1921, as well as modern bayonets and swords in Turko-Greek war. Perhaps some examples of a very high limit of shortage,poverty and "whatever they had" as you say.

Let me draw your attention to one small detail in the photo that Eftihis so kindly provided. The blade in that example, while sheathed, is obviously not as dramatically curved as one often finds. Notice the lack of the large swell in the center of the scabbard. I believe this to be a variant with typically split horn hilt but fairly regular saber style blade. I once had a similar example which had the typical Black Sea Yat handle but a saber blade with shallow curvature but typical fullering often found on these examples. So, interesting that you have 2 distinct Black Sea Yat blade profiles, greatly recurved and saber style with little curvature yet both with same handle.

Outstanding Rick!!!
These photos are great, and as you have observed that these had variations. As I mentioned in my most recent post, there are a number of types from the same general regions, and it would be great to see illustrations of them. There are examples of these extremely recurved blades with sabre type hilts and vice versa.

As I mentioned I am hoping that we might consider the horned hilt in discussion. B.I.had mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that a distinguished member of the board of the Askeri Museum in Istanbul had completed a map detailing regional locations of many of the variations.
It would be most interesting to know details of that map!

All the best,
Jim

Today I've got a new book "Edged Weapons in the Collection of the Russian Museum of Ethnography" and found there a couple of interesting examples. The first one was aquired during the museum expedition to Tashkent, Uzbekistan in 1934 and is attributed to Kazakhs. The origin of other 2 is unknown.

That is a beautifully photographed album but its content is severely lacking in terms of accuracy.
As to the "Black Sea Yatagan" per se, it is interesting that these weapons migrated about as they did, however this should not be taken as an indicator of origin.

Ham

More on this legend sword. This photo shows the Pontian ancestors of a Greek family, around 1900. Look the hilt

You can definitely see the curve of the blade and the pudgey scabbard, as well.

Artzi has a new Kindjal on his site and has graciously gave me permission to reference it here. He even put a " Not for sale" sign for the duration of our discussions.
Many thanks!
OK, here it is :
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2883
This is a typical South Caucasian/North Turkish kindjal, usually attributed to Minghrelians,Gurians etc. As Eftihis shows , these kindjals were also worn by Pontian Greeks, and earlier posts ( Erlikhan?) had a picture of a Laz family displaying similar weapons.
What is so specific about them? Square pommel and relatively blunt tip.
But the interesting part for our discussion is the scabbard, ie leatherwork.
Tirri in his book noticed similarities between the leatherwork on Laz Bicagi's scabbards and Danagil knives. This was one of his main arguments in attributing the BSY not to the Black Sea area, but to North Africa.
But here we have a typical Caucasian weapon, kindjal, from a very defined area, North Turkey, with the same leatherwork. That is yet another argument in favor of ( already well established) Caucasian provenance of Laz Bicagi. Interestingly, Artzi's example has it leatherwork dyed green; exactly the color used on most Laz Bicagis ( see, for example, post by Tim on this thread and dated Oct. 12, 2005)
Once again, thanks to Artzi for his help.

Thanks so much for you commentary on this! I saw it on his site but was waiting for it to sell before asking about it. What with my own BS Yatagan, I am very interested in the origins of Tirri's in particular. I do have a question though. Earlier in this thread I think it is mentioned that the similarity between African leather work and that of Tirri's yatagan could be explained by Laz pirates traveling to N. Africa, and perhaps incorporating local decoration. This would also explain the relative rarity of this sort of leather work on this particular weapon type. My question is, why could this new kinjal not also be an example of this sort of cross-culturalization? I gather from your post that this leatherwork appearing on kinjal is also uncommon to see, and surely such a weapon could have travelled just as the BS yatagan.

Of course this is rather playing the devil's advocate, and begs the question: How does one actually prove that this leather work is in fact Causcasian, and not a direct influence from N. Africa? How many weapons, or must it appear on items that would not possibly have travelled?

Your continued posting of your expertise is invaluable to those of us who are far less studied, and greatly appreciated!

--Radleigh

I agree Radleigh, Ariels expertise is indeed much appreciated, and I have often been impressed by his continued research on this transcaucasian mystery weapon. My own research on the Black Sea yataghan began about 1995 when I obtained my first example. I was extremely excited as it did appear to be an extremely rare form, and only mentioned (and illustrated) in very obscure references.Most of my research was secondary, spent in reconfirming provenance of the weapons in the early article from 1941 (Denmark) and contacting Gerhard Seifert, the author of the 1962 "Schwert Degen Sabel" who surprisingly told me that the information from his book on these 'Kurdish/Armenian yataghans' as he captioned it, was obtained from the author of the 1941 article.
Through the years, more examples surfaced, and by the time I encountered Tony Tirri in Baltimore (just prior to publication of his book) I was pretty much astounded by the fact that he based his theory of North African origin on these by a single example, which did indeed reflect compelling similarities to African weapons.

There is a long and interesting trail of posts and threads on these fascinating weapons, which has been even more fascinating to me as added to my own research of years prior to these forum references and Tirri's book. I think Ariel did indeed prove conclusively the origins of the BSY, which was extremely exciting for me when my own conclusions were validated.

It is not often that a mysterious ethnographic edged weapon with such a vaguely represented past has its ancestry so plausibly revealed, especially given the intense diffusion of these weapons in times of diaspora and geopolitical flux. It is times like these and with these kind of results that I am reminded of why we all band together in our serious study of these weapons to resolve errors often found in published material, and properly preserve the true history of these weapons.

Thanks again Ariel for the tenacity and continued research supporting the findings on these fascinating weapons!

All very best regards,
Jim

Hi Jim! Thanks for your response. I don;t want to misrepresent what I'm asking here. I think based only on what's on the forum it is clear that, as a form, the BS yatagan is a Caucasian weapon. I'm more interested specifically in Tirri's one example, and why it (and mine, and this kindjal) have such decoration as to think they are N. African. I guess my question is whether it is more likely that this mode of decoration developed indeppendently as a rare form of decoration in the Causcuses, or whether it developed because of N. African influence, or whether these weapons originated in the Caucuses and were decorated in N. Africa.

By no means am I suggesting Ariel's (or your) attribution as to the origin of this weapon as a type is incorrect. I'm just trying to determine if there is a real reasaon for the orginal source of the confusion.

Thanks for all you do here as well, to be sure!

--Radleigh

Hi Radleigh,
I didn't mean to sound as if there was any negative connotation in your post, which there was decidely not, I simply wanted to concur with your very positive comments on Ariel and his observations.

I very much like your very well placed questions in trying to find the possible explanations for the similarities in decoration and if there are identifiable links to support such influences. This is one of the key elements of the serious study of ethnographic weapons and thier development as well as thier diffusion and influence.
Thank you for the very kind words, and please do maintain asking these kinds of questions on weapons as they appear here on the forum. This is the kind of approach I always hope for as weapons are posted. I look forward to hearing answers from those here who are known to be highly knowledgable on weapons of these regions.

All the best,
Jim

Gentlemen,

I have, over the years, read about your Black See yataghan, and I have started to wonder, when is a yatagan a yatagan and when is it a yatagan?

The yatagan blades seem to be more and more artistic, so could you please give a clear definition of what such a blade looks like.

Very good observation Jens, the term 'yataghan' on these swords is somewhat misapplied, and it seems that the application of the term derives from the 1941 article where these were identified as Kurdish-Armenian yataghans. Obviously the term itself seems to have a quite general use in some cases, as for example, the 'Salawar yataghan' which actually refers to the 'Khyber knife' . These typically huge knives are of course actually short swords, with a huge butcher knife blade shape with has nothing remotely to do with the forward curved yataghan blade.

As is so often the case, terminology in the study of ethnographic weapons is confounding, to say the least!

It should be noted that these 'Black Sea yataghans' with horned hilts, have blades that sometimes deviate from the most common needle point, recurved blades to heavier and slightly curved blades. For that matter, the horned hilt is also not always present as the examples sometimes have an almost kindjhal like pommel.

All best regards,
Jim

OK, guys, many thanks for the compliments, but they are misplaced.
The Black Sea origin of the BSY was known to many ( Artzi, for sure!) well before my trip to Istanbul. The presence of similar specimens in the Askeri Muze was also mentioned by others.
My only "contribution" was asking a young curator there the local name for it, and reporting here that it was Laz Bicagi. Beyond that, I added zilch to the issue.
As to the term "yataghan", it also comes from the origin: "Black Sea Yataghan" is a literal translation of "Karadeniz Yataghan". Astvatsaturyan in her book "Turkish weapons" shows a gorgeous example with ivory handle ( BTW, more "ear-like" than the usual horns) from the collection of the State Historical Museum. The caption reads (in exact translation) " Yataghan of original form". I already had a short fistfight with a non-Russian enthusiast who wanted to announce an Earth-shattering theory that this type of sword was in fact an "Ur" yataghan, based on the literal translation of the word "original". In fact, Russians use the word "original'nyi" to indicate " unusual".
As the mouse said after barking at the cat and frightening it into immediate retreat " It is nice to know foreign languages" :D

BTW, can the moderators permanently attach a picture of Artzi's kindjal to this thread? Hope he does not mind.

Photos
 

Photos attached:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02883/ph-0.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02883/ph-3.jpg

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...02883/ph-4.jpg

Dear Artzi,
You are a prince!

Artzi, thank you very much for posting this extremely impressive kindjhal, which indeed shows the green leather as seen on the large elliptical scabbards sometimes seen on the BSY scabbards. Please excuse the inadvertant omission of your research into these interesting weapons in my previous comments. Naturally your position on these was indeed well known on these many years before Ariels visit to Istanbul, and I was remiss in not mentioning Lee's notes on the weapon from his own visit to Istanbul.

Ariel, I appreciate your notes bringing this to my attention, as well as your very gentlemanly modesty. My compliments were meant to address more specifically your attention to the continued pursuit of resolution concerning the many questions pertaining to these mysterious swords.
I would like to thank you additionally for the explanation of how the term 'yataghan' came to be applied to these as well. Your attention to detail is very much appreciated, as I wondered the same thing that Jens had noted.

All very best regards,
Jim