Dear Ganjawulung,

I am fully aware the top picture in my post #37 would be regarded by most people as Wrongko from Banten, as I already stated. However on Jensen's Krisdisk Chapter 4, page 6 an almost identical Wrongko is atributed to Tegal/Cirebon.

A very similar Wrongko to that in the second picture in the post #37 is attributed to Cirebon by Hidayat.

The Wrongko on the wright side picture in your post #30 would be attributed to Tegal by the most people.

I suppose, there are a lot of opinions and guesses about the provenience of different Wrongko forms before the beginning of 18. cent. (particularly old Ladrang forms) and no absolute clarity. I suppose also, this clarity is inexistent and so impossibly to reach.

What traits make this a Pattani sheath? We don't see any coteng sheaths like this anywhere else.

So Gustav,

I just follow the example from the Museum Gajah (The National Museum) of Jakarta. It was displayed some keris Banten like images below. You may compare yourself the picture..

The third picture, is an example of Tegal warangka with "rajamala" hilt

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganjawulung,

in my post #37 I wrote : The pictures are keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

I never said, the sheath in question isn't from Banten, more the opposite is the case.

I think, there is no need to point out, which from them possibly is from Banten, after the pictures in your previous post.

The use of interrogation marks in my post wasn't there, becouse I would like them so much. Using them I would like just to show, there could be many opinions (which, of course, are not equally good founded) regarding the provenienence of the sheaths in these pictures.

Hello all,

like I mentioned in my post #38 this sheat is still a great mystery for my person since my handled Pattani keris is very marginal. So my "knowledge" is taken from pictures in books and from the forum as well from other online pages. And all sheaths I have seen there have been worked in good or very good skill. But this sheath isn't executed with a good skill. I will show you what I mean in pictures separate. A second point is the used wood, it's a very light wood with a unremarkable grain and from blonde natural colour. The weight is 99 gram. :eek:
Besides from this there are two repairs. The front leaf of sampir is missing and replaced from some sort of body filler. And the badly repaired break behind the batang.
Now the comments to the pictures which shows the "mistakes" from the carving. When you look to the pic 6 in post # 38 you can see that the tulang daun are not straight. At the same pic you can see that the caping points are not in direct opposite. The carving of the mata ketiga siva are not very well carved (pic 4 & 5).
But my feeling is like Dave and Moshah mentioned that it is a Pattani sheath, look for example the tips of sampir.
But I am with BluErf, which traits let it be a Pattani sheat?

Best regards,

Detlef

sheath
 

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

Do you have a picture to show us Max ? :)

The question is if it is possible to have a sheath from Pattani with such a light wood and not exactly carvings? All other sheaths I have seen from there have had better carvings and other wood, i.e. more hard wood.

Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post.

Here a picture from a museum in Venice:

Hello Max,

first of all welcome to the forum.

Your sheath look indeed very similar apart from the missing tips. Please can you tell us if the sheat is also from light wood, i.e. balsa wood? And a picture from the blade if you don't mind?

I am planning to restore the sheat since it is ugly painted and the break good visible.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Gustav,

the sheath from Max is very similar. My guess or better hope was from beginning that it is a Pattani sheat (look #5 same thread).

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,

The sheath is indeed of light wood, I think is the same wood they use for your sheath. It has the same structure and same glance, although pictures always difference a little bit from the realty. But I recognice it as very identical. I have given it some though too, to led the sheath restored. But it never came so far. maybay now its a good time. You give me some good ideas about the missing tipps. I think its at least worth it !!! Here are the pics you aksed for.

Hello all,

This could be originate anywhere within Nusantara, we know too little about the past. Maybe even Madura own these style in the past, we never know. But then the style develop very well in Pattani (north to Malaysia ;)) and in my opinion achieve its highest form there.
Attached are similar styles for comparison.

Hello Max,

thank's for the additional pictures. Agree that the sheaths are very similar. The blade seems not original to the sheat alike by my assemble.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Pak Chandra,

nice to have you back here and thank's for the pictures!

Detlef

Hi...

Wow we are still very much in the discussion?

If you all aware, we can see that the "third eye of shiva" differs from Sajen's sheath, the coteng's sheath and the Spirit of wood book.

Hopefully someone familiar with this area should point us what and how is "the third eye of shiva" supposed to be.

To answer my own question, Dave and I just came across this picture of 1 very old coteng in our friend, Paul De Souza's collection, which was collected in Thailand (Bangkok). This more or less shows that Detlef's keris is a very early coteng form.

question
 

As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java.

Hello Kai Wee,

thank you for clarify the origin of my sheat. This answer also the question from Moshah about the third eye of shiva since it look on Paul de Souza's sheath very similar.
One question: is the nose from the hilt by Paul de Souza's keris old broken or is the hilt still complete?

Now it is like Dave write in #39, all I need is a Pattani blade and a fitting hilt.

Maybe someone tried to fill the holes with body filler?

The hilt has a broken nose, so we can only imagine what it looks like complete. The nose probably would not be as long as latter-day coteng hilts, or it would look aesthetically funny, imho.

Anyway, it's a very exceptional hilt. Thank you for showing.

Well detlef you already start searching for the blade, aren't you? :)

Some people say coteng will fit best with Chenok blade. I only know that the name is taken from the village in southern Thai, and supposedly it is the oldest blade ever made in Pattani keris range.

Do anybody know about this kind of blade? How it looks like?

Yes, I keep my eyes open but at first I want to restore the sheat and i am very unsure if I shall replace the broken tip with wood or let it like this.

What is your opinion?

Regards,

Detlef

With slightest knowledge of woodwork myself, I can offer you no professional advice. But if you gonna remade the broken tip personally I think it's going to be a nice sight to the eye.

As for me, I tried my best to be puritans by trying not to meddle with minor damages.

I found recently this blade and I think it's a Peninsula blade. Unfortunately is the kembang kacang broken but apart from this it's a very nice one in my eyes and it fit nearly perfect inside the sheath without any woodwork.
What do you think, will it be a good blade to complete my Coteng sheath?

Thank you very much in advance,

Detlef

Detlef, I cannot answer this question with any claim to certainty, I'll leave that to somebody else with more knowledge in this specific field --- rather suspect it would be incorrect, but I do not know the acceptable variations.

However, here are some images of a blade that has suffered the same, or similar, damage as has yours, and the repair that was carried out in the place of origin.

Hallo Alan, at my blade tried someone also to repair the kembang kacang or it was repaired and broke again.

Yes, it looks as if a similar repair may have been carried out, and has since failed.

I guess you could always do it again if you wished.

But how? I have never handled a blade with a repair like this so I am clueless.
:shrug:

Neither have I, but if you look carefully at both the repair that has failed on your blade, and the repair that is still in place on my blade, I'm sure you will see how it has been done.

You know what they say:- a picture is worth 1000 words.

We have two pictures here, and I think it would take maybe 2000 words to explain in detail how this was done.

Just spend the time and look carefully. You'll work it out.

Thank you for sharing this blade, Alan. I find it remarkable. There is a frankness and a practicality to the method of repair that is quite compelling in its own aesthetic right. I'm reminded of an image of a jawa demam hilt where the broken beak had been replaced with a metal one (with visible pin joints), although I cannot recall where I saw the image now.

Sheath form
 

Does anyone have any idea where does this keris originated from, especially the sheath?

That is sweet....and unusual.
Based on nothing but instinct i'm going to suggest Sumatra, but what part i am uncertain...
of course some closer photos wouldn't hurt... :)

Whoa, the sheath almost looks like some sort of axe. Sharp! This looks contemporary and could come from anywhere, though the intention seems to be Straits-style keris. :)

This piece, belongs to a friend up north.. I was told that the crosspiece is made from ivory and the piece is from Nias.. I doubt that it's from Nias.. there's a remote mixture of tajong and minang on the upper crosspiece curl.. I'm thinking that the ivory might be stained to look older..
I do have my doubts on the authenticity of this piece..

Yes, the sheath remind me to the small Minang keris but special the buntut and the blade let have me also some doubts if this is an authentc piece. But when it's old it is an outstanding piece. :shrug:

Yes, it is that minang flavor that had me thinking Sumatra.
Now when it comes to "authentic" i think we need to define our terms. I would like to think that in some respects the keris arts are still active and evolving. If this sheath were to be presented as an old and classic form we might be right to question it's "authenticity". However, if it is recognized as a new sheath form i would have to say that it seems a beautiful and well executed expression of contemporary keris arts and in that it would be quite "authentic". :)
The blade, of course, is another matter...

Allow me to define it further.. it was presented as an old authentic piece from Nias.. with supposedly age cracked ivory with patina.. Afaik, Nias does not have a keris culture, although to some extent, imported keris blades were used within certain Nias communities. ;)

If the sheath is presented as a new contemporary or a re-worked item, I'm ok with that too.. but if modified and indicated as old, now that's a different story..

Does the ivory have age crack's? Wrong description (here Nias) is very common.