shamshir:persian or turkish? good or not?

BerberDagger · 18th March 2008, 02:05 AM

Hi, I would ask information abaut this shamshir...it is Turkish ...I think it is a turkish shamshir....

but i think it is not very old...whant do you think abaut.

thanks for help.

Philip · 18th March 2008, 05:09 AM

From what I see in the pics, it is indeed a shamshir of Turkish style*. Judging from the narrowness and deep curve of blade, it looks like a later style, well into the 19th century. It appears that the two suspension rings (for the cords that hang the weapon from the belt or over the shoulder) are missing from the scabbard-fittings.

Whether it is a good one or not depends largely on the quality of the steel in the blade. Is there a visible "damascus" pattern (either crystalline "jauhar" or mechanical pattern-weld or lamination)? Got any close up pics?

Thanks for posting this one.

*Turkish (Ottoman) style mountings are characterized by the pistol-shaped grip without metal pommel-cap, a markedly cross-shaped guard, and a narrow but thick scabbard with a dorsal slot at the throat to accommodate the blade. The scabbard fittings tend to be large, covering a good deal of the length, as opposed to the much smaller Persian style mounts. Turkish shamshirs of this period are typically fitted up in brass or silver hardware, whereas the Persians preferred steel. In any case, the shamshir blades of both cultures have an essentially identical form.

ward · 22nd March 2008, 02:36 AM

phill add a 100 - 130 years extra to your estimate and you will be right. very doubtful 19th century

Philip · 23rd March 2008, 03:12 AM

From just looking at the photos and without the benefit of measurements, the blade seems to have the curvature and narrowness typical of late pieces. Adding 130 years would bring it back to 17th cent., seems a bit early for this piece. I might revise my estimate if there is evidence that the blade endured extensive regrinding connected with multiple polishes in its lifetime -- sometimes you can find hints of that by way of remains of old cartouches under magnification. Orientation of such decorative elements relative to the present contours of the blade can often reveal if considerable amount of metal has been removed. I would say that the construction and quality of scabbard mounts points to a late origin for those.

ward · 23rd March 2008, 03:00 PM

add the time in the other direction late 20th century. Look at the grips the scabbard screams new

ALEX · 23rd March 2008, 05:37 PM

Hard to judge the age of blade without physical inspections, especially without any stamps/marks, but as for fittings - I agree with Ward - they are new, as well as hilt.

18th March 2008, 02:05 AM	#1
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	shamshir:persian or turkish? good or not? Hi, I would ask information abaut this shamshir...it is Turkish ...I think it is a turkish shamshir.... but i think it is not very old...whant do you think abaut. thanks for help. Attached Images

23rd March 2008, 03:00 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	add the time in the other direction late 20th century. Look at the grips the scabbard screams new Last edited by ward; 23rd March 2008 at 03:14 PM.

18th March 2008, 05:09 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	From what I see in the pics, it is indeed a shamshir of Turkish style. Judging from the narrowness and deep curve of blade, it looks like a later style, well into the 19th century. It appears that the two suspension rings (for the cords that hang the weapon from the belt or over the shoulder) are missing from the scabbard-fittings. Whether it is a good one or not depends largely on the quality of the steel in the blade. Is there a visible "damascus" pattern (either crystalline "jauhar" or mechanical pattern-weld or lamination)? Got any close up pics? Thanks for posting this one. Turkish (Ottoman) style mountings are characterized by the pistol-shaped grip without metal pommel-cap, a markedly cross-shaped guard, and a narrow but thick scabbard with a dorsal slot at the throat to accommodate the blade. The scabbard fittings tend to be large, covering a good deal of the length, as opposed to the much smaller Persian style mounts. Turkish shamshirs of this period are typically fitted up in brass or silver hardware, whereas the Persians preferred steel. In any case, the shamshir blades of both cultures have an essentially identical form.

22nd March 2008, 02:36 AM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	phill add a 100 - 130 years extra to your estimate and you will be right. very doubtful 19th century

23rd March 2008, 03:12 AM	#4
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	From just looking at the photos and without the benefit of measurements, the blade seems to have the curvature and narrowness typical of late pieces. Adding 130 years would bring it back to 17th cent., seems a bit early for this piece. I might revise my estimate if there is evidence that the blade endured extensive regrinding connected with multiple polishes in its lifetime -- sometimes you can find hints of that by way of remains of old cartouches under magnification. Orientation of such decorative elements relative to the present contours of the blade can often reveal if considerable amount of metal has been removed. I would say that the construction and quality of scabbard mounts points to a late origin for those.

23rd March 2008, 05:37 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Hard to judge the age of blade without physical inspections, especially without any stamps/marks, but as for fittings - I agree with Ward - they are new, as well as hilt.