Moro

Flavio · 19th January 2007, 04:28 PM

Hi all here is another moro kris that i have recently bought. PLease tell me if i'm correct: the scabbard has a nice end made of copper and brass (when i got it was sooo patineted that i was able to see only the copper on some little spots) is nice, but unfortunatly there are two strips of plastic (to me the threads laquered seem older) but maybe the entire scabbard is mid 20th century? The belt is made of nilon and some kind of cloth. The blade is laminated and the gangya is separated. The handle seems to me mindanao (maybe also the blade?), what is strange is the very pommel (copper with a kind of putty or glue in the middle) that seems a gunong guard?? but with a very similar okir decoration like the end of the scabbard (maybe also this part is a recent addition). Can you tell me if i'm totally wrong (that is possible

) and more what i have to do with the plastic strips on he scabbard and the belt? i'm thinking to cut them!
Thank you

Flavio · 19th January 2007, 04:31 PM

more

Battara · 19th January 2007, 06:38 PM

Now I understand better the pommel. Maybe copper, but I also wonder if it isn't swaasa! No not necessarily a gunong guard (though the middle is soldered together -

).

The scabbard end seems to be copper and brass. Testing can tell all the above for sure.

I also see traces of a separable ganga - a good sign of the blade being older.

Flavio · 19th January 2007, 06:58 PM

Hi Jose, do you think that is a good idea to cut the plastic on the scabbard and the belt? Do you think that the pommel could be old like the blade (and so also all the handle could be old)?

kai · 19th January 2007, 08:44 PM

Hello Flavio,

Since the elephant's lip is angled, I'm wondering wether this isn't a Sulu blade later fitted for local use with a Maguindanao scabbard. Also the 21" blade length wouldn't speak against such an attribution...

I think most scabbards currently coming out of the Philippines are likely to not be considerably older than 50 years: Any piece in actual use will get its scabbard modified, repaired, and replaced at the whim of its owner and heirloom items only kept in storage won't usually show up for low prices...

I don't have a problem with your suggestion to replace modern plastics used for repair with more traditional materials. However, I think in this case the modifications are genuine (i. e. made within the culture) and witnesses of actual use during modern times. If you decide to replace them, I'd suggest to store all removed stuff for future analysis rather than discarding it.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 19th January 2007, 08:52 PM

Hello Jose,

Could you please comment on the use of nails for fixing pommel plates? I've seen this quite a lot but wonder what the traditional approach to fix such plates would have been? Splints from the same material (like often used for wood/ivory of scabbards) might be an obvious choice but may not be durable enough for fixing thin pommel plates, especially if made from softer metals or relatively brittle material.

Regards,
Kai

David · 19th January 2007, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I don't have a problem with your suggestion to replace modern plastics used for repair with more traditional materials. However, I think in this case the modifications are genuine (i. e. made within the culture) and witnesses of actual use during modern times. If you decide to replace them, I'd suggest to store all removed stuff for future analysis rather than discarding it.

Personally, even though i usual hate plastic on my pieces, i agree with Kai. This looks like a sword geared for ethnographic use. I think it would be a shame to alter the history of this sword by removing parts that were obviously in use by the culture in order to give it an overall older appearance. Clean it, etch it perhaps, but i would leave all the parts in place. It belongs to the history of the blade.

Flavio · 20th January 2007, 09:00 AM

Thank you David and Kai, i will leave the scabbard as it is! Any suggestions on the age of the handle and the scabbard? could be that the scabbard is older and the plastics elements just recent additions? the copper-brass or swaasa elements are of modern type (decorations) or could be that are of older kind? Thank you for your help

Battara · 20th January 2007, 09:11 PM

You folks are too fast for me!

Good thoughts all!

Regarding the nails, I have seen them used on older pieces, and what we would consider "crudly" made ones at that. Glue for something on top would not last long. Most plates I have seen use nails. Not uncommon from what I have handled and seen so far. An observation is that from the ones I have personally dealt with, the majority seem to be Maguindanao kris that use nails or wire connectors overall.

The picture I have is the earliest one I have that uses 10k gold over copper nails to keep the gold/turtleshell/mother-of-pearl in place. This kris goes back to around 1900. Only one of the nails shows in the middle (the rest are underneath the middle gold part).

Copper, brass, silver, gold, and swaasa are all materials that have been used on older pieces. When it comes to newer pieces, most do use more copper and brass since these are cheapest (but no guarantee since recent versions of Moro stuff coming from Marawi in Maranao territory still use gold plating and silver). I would say that for the most part swaasa is older since it takes more time and effort to make (made of gold, copper, and a little silver).

It is possible that a guard was modified to recycle on your piece Flavio, but this would also be in keeping with a long cultural tradition (recycling or selling of precious metal parts like silver, gold, or swaasa).

Final note: I think the strap the way is it is interesting.

Flavio · 21st January 2007, 11:34 AM

Thank you again guys

19th January 2007, 04:28 PM	#1
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Moro Hi all here is another moro kris that i have recently bought. PLease tell me if i'm correct: the scabbard has a nice end made of copper and brass (when i got it was sooo patineted that i was able to see only the copper on some little spots) is nice, but unfortunatly there are two strips of plastic (to me the threads laquered seem older) but maybe the entire scabbard is mid 20th century? The belt is made of nilon and some kind of cloth. The blade is laminated and the gangya is separated. The handle seems to me mindanao (maybe also the blade?), what is strange is the very pommel (copper with a kind of putty or glue in the middle) that seems a gunong guard?? but with a very similar okir decoration like the end of the scabbard (maybe also this part is a recent addition). Can you tell me if i'm totally wrong (that is possible ) and more what i have to do with the plastic strips on he scabbard and the belt? i'm thinking to cut them! Thank you Attached Images

19th January 2007, 04:31 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	more Attached Images

20th January 2007, 09:00 AM	#8
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you David and Kai, i will leave the scabbard as it is! Any suggestions on the age of the handle and the scabbard? could be that the scabbard is older and the plastics elements just recent additions? the copper-brass or swaasa elements are of modern type (decorations) or could be that are of older kind? Thank you for your help Last edited by Flavio; 20th January 2007 at 09:15 AM.

20th January 2007, 09:11 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	You folks are too fast for me! Good thoughts all! Regarding the nails, I have seen them used on older pieces, and what we would consider "crudly" made ones at that. Glue for something on top would not last long. Most plates I have seen use nails. Not uncommon from what I have handled and seen so far. An observation is that from the ones I have personally dealt with, the majority seem to be Maguindanao kris that use nails or wire connectors overall. The picture I have is the earliest one I have that uses 10k gold over copper nails to keep the gold/turtleshell/mother-of-pearl in place. This kris goes back to around 1900. Only one of the nails shows in the middle (the rest are underneath the middle gold part). Copper, brass, silver, gold, and swaasa are all materials that have been used on older pieces. When it comes to newer pieces, most do use more copper and brass since these are cheapest (but no guarantee since recent versions of Moro stuff coming from Marawi in Maranao territory still use gold plating and silver). I would say that for the most part swaasa is older since it takes more time and effort to make (made of gold, copper, and a little silver). It is possible that a guard was modified to recycle on your piece Flavio, but this would also be in keeping with a long cultural tradition (recycling or selling of precious metal parts like silver, gold, or swaasa). Final note: I think the strap the way is it is interesting. Attached Images

19th January 2007, 06:38 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Now I understand better the pommel. Maybe copper, but I also wonder if it isn't swaasa! No not necessarily a gunong guard (though the middle is soldered together - ). The scabbard end seems to be copper and brass. Testing can tell all the above for sure. I also see traces of a separable ganga - a good sign of the blade being older.

19th January 2007, 06:58 PM	#4
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi Jose, do you think that is a good idea to cut the plastic on the scabbard and the belt? Do you think that the pommel could be old like the blade (and so also all the handle could be old)?

19th January 2007, 08:44 PM	#5
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Flavio, Since the elephant's lip is angled, I'm wondering wether this isn't a Sulu blade later fitted for local use with a Maguindanao scabbard. Also the 21" blade length wouldn't speak against such an attribution... I think most scabbards currently coming out of the Philippines are likely to not be considerably older than 50 years: Any piece in actual use will get its scabbard modified, repaired, and replaced at the whim of its owner and heirloom items only kept in storage won't usually show up for low prices... I don't have a problem with your suggestion to replace modern plastics used for repair with more traditional materials. However, I think in this case the modifications are genuine (i. e. made within the culture) and witnesses of actual use during modern times. If you decide to replace them, I'd suggest to store all removed stuff for future analysis rather than discarding it. Regards, Kai

19th January 2007, 08:52 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Jose, Could you please comment on the use of nails for fixing pommel plates? I've seen this quite a lot but wonder what the traditional approach to fix such plates would have been? Splints from the same material (like often used for wood/ivory of scabbards) might be an obvious choice but may not be durable enough for fixing thin pommel plates, especially if made from softer metals or relatively brittle material. Regards, Kai

21st January 2007, 11:34 AM	#10
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Thank you again guys