South Seas club?

Tim Simmons · 29th March 2025, 02:49 PM

New ebay purchase, the only bidder, good or bad? Went for at as it was not offered at a fortune making price so common these days. Listed as an early 1800s South Sea Club by a militaria dealer. Not wanting to tar them all with the same brush but not usually the best when it comes to ethno stuff sure you know what I mean. However I am happy to believe the dealer may well be correct about South Seas. In my limited handling of clubs I do not see it as African. I suspect it one of the myriad of club forms from Vanuatu of which some are really good and other like this so,so. Saying that it does handle very nicely. The main reason for posting here is how it is made. I hummed and hawed for days other the photos curious as to why it looked part turned and part hand carved. Seeing that some circular elements were quite off circular I went for it. On receiving it is clear that the club has indeed been part turned. This was a surprise as I thought wood turning was not a practise in Oceania. On googling pre colonial wood turning in the south seas it turns out that wood was turned by some peoples. A bow can be used as turning motion. I suspect the irregular circular turning on my club may be from a lack of a stable tool rest. I think it is clear that a metal tool has been used on the club. The two holes are from boring insect, catch the right position and you can just look through and see that the insect has eaten a curved tunnel. Just the head and tail stock {our words} impressions were very interesting. 60cm long.

Jim McDougall · 8th April 2025, 08:43 PM

Tim, I cannot believe (or maybe I can) that NOBODY has bothered to respond to this! It seems to be a trend these days. Once upon a time there were many guys who were anxious to share expertise, or at least offer observations or positive comments.

I know less than zip on war clubs, but I am willing to at least try to get some clue, so as I dont have any resources at hand, I looked online.

My nearest guess on this would be Tongan, as they seem more inclined to simpler design, this is like a cross between a billy club and a baseball bat but with cylindrical head. From that brief look, if this is the case it seems Tongan are quite valuable compared to other Oceanic. These pictured are more ornate longer etc. but seemed a good start.

I'll look further, interest piqued!

1800 views in 9 days????not a peep? You'd think anyone who keyed to this thread and topic might know something.

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2025, 03:25 PM

The more I look at this, IMO it may well be a police billy club. It is pretty austere for tribal items and the rimmed base (?).
Hard to find info on those.

Marc M. · 9th April 2025, 03:39 PM

Cool stuff, looks very functional and used. Can't say anything meaningful about it unfortunately.

Regards
Marc

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2025, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc M.

Cool stuff, looks very functional and used. Can't say anything meaningful about it unfortunately.

Regards
Marc

Thanks for the note anyway Marc! Its nice to have at least some input or acknowledgement on posts. The return rate on threads is thousands to one as far as response. Even if someone does not add key info, a kind word is also valuable. I know nothing on these....but Im curious....and looking . Hopefully an answer will turn up.

Best
Jim

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2025, 04:18 PM

Going through all I can find on police billy clubs, night sticks, etc. not referenced in use before c. 1848; by 1956 called policemans club. As far as I can see these were notably shorter and while the carved furrows at the handle are compellingly similar to those on these shorter batons , no evidence of the enlarged cylindrical head area.

Back to tribal.

Edster · 9th April 2025, 06:55 PM

Tim,

Could this be a tool for mashing food stuffs in a container? The barrel end looks too small to be a useful striking surface at the specific range.

Just a guess,
Ed

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2025, 07:40 PM

Could easy mash your face and head.

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2025, 09:00 PM

Remember the old rolling pin gag?

Edster · 9th April 2025, 10:21 PM

See photos. If it looks like a duck...Can be used several ways.

African
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...3-c-4544fe2950

Japanese
https://www.etsy.com/listing/7393610...n-rice-pounder
Ed

Tim Simmons · 10th April 2025, 02:55 PM

Has good grip handle to swing it that's for sure.

Tim Simmons · 10th April 2025, 05:09 PM

Jim's reference to a police billy club got me thinking about the ww2 forces in what was still the New Hebrides. The USA forces had a great influence on the Islanders so much so that it lead to cargo cults. Today there is the John Frum cult, a believe in practice originating from the USA war supplies. I do wonder if it may have a bearing on the form of this club. Somebody has a collection of USA military police clubs? Not just USA military police where stationed in the New Hebrides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVD8eLvig_I

gp · 11th April 2025, 06:49 PM

Thank you gents! I didn't know anything about clubs but thanks to your posts I do learn a lot about this most interesting subject!

Question to Tim; as you collect these...are you a Bushwacker ? A fan of the Lions.....?

Tim Simmons · 11th April 2025, 08:12 PM

A bushwhacker, the lions run with much deeper pockets and tend to run in one direction.

29th March 2025, 02:49 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,840	South Seas club? New ebay purchase, the only bidder, good or bad? Went for at as it was not offered at a fortune making price so common these days. Listed as an early 1800s South Sea Club by a militaria dealer. Not wanting to tar them all with the same brush but not usually the best when it comes to ethno stuff sure you know what I mean. However I am happy to believe the dealer may well be correct about South Seas. In my limited handling of clubs I do not see it as African. I suspect it one of the myriad of club forms from Vanuatu of which some are really good and other like this so,so. Saying that it does handle very nicely. The main reason for posting here is how it is made. I hummed and hawed for days other the photos curious as to why it looked part turned and part hand carved. Seeing that some circular elements were quite off circular I went for it. On receiving it is clear that the club has indeed been part turned. This was a surprise as I thought wood turning was not a practise in Oceania. On googling pre colonial wood turning in the south seas it turns out that wood was turned by some peoples. A bow can be used as turning motion. I suspect the irregular circular turning on my club may be from a lack of a stable tool rest. I think it is clear that a metal tool has been used on the club. The two holes are from boring insect, catch the right position and you can just look through and see that the insect has eaten a curved tunnel. Just the head and tail stock {our words} impressions were very interesting. 60cm long. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th March 2025 at 02:53 PM. Reason: checking

8th April 2025, 08:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,173	Tim, I cannot believe (or maybe I can) that NOBODY has bothered to respond to this! It seems to be a trend these days. Once upon a time there were many guys who were anxious to share expertise, or at least offer observations or positive comments. I know less than zip on war clubs, but I am willing to at least try to get some clue, so as I dont have any resources at hand, I looked online. My nearest guess on this would be Tongan, as they seem more inclined to simpler design, this is like a cross between a billy club and a baseball bat but with cylindrical head. From that brief look, if this is the case it seems Tongan are quite valuable compared to other Oceanic. These pictured are more ornate longer etc. but seemed a good start. I'll look further, interest piqued! 1800 views in 9 days????not a peep? You'd think anyone who keyed to this thread and topic might know something. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th April 2025 at 08:58 PM.

9th April 2025, 10:21 PM	#10
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	See photos. If it looks like a duck...Can be used several ways. African https://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...3-c-4544fe2950 Japanese https://www.etsy.com/listing/7393610...n-rice-pounder Ed Last edited by Edster; 9th April 2025 at 10:27 PM. Reason: added Japanese example

10th April 2025, 05:09 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,840	Jim's reference to a police billy club got me thinking about the ww2 forces in what was still the New Hebrides. The USA forces had a great influence on the Islanders so much so that it lead to cargo cults. Today there is the John Frum cult, a believe in practice originating from the USA war supplies. I do wonder if it may have a bearing on the form of this club. Somebody has a collection of USA military police clubs? Not just USA military police where stationed in the New Hebrides. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVD8eLvig_I Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th April 2025 at 06:21 PM.

9th April 2025, 03:25 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,173	The more I look at this, IMO it may well be a police billy club. It is pretty austere for tribal items and the rimmed base (?). Hard to find info on those.

9th April 2025, 03:39 PM	#4
Marc M. Member Join Date: Aug 2019 Location: Belgium Posts: 256	Cool stuff, looks very functional and used. Can't say anything meaningful about it unfortunately. Regards Marc

9th April 2025, 04:18 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,173	Going through all I can find on police billy clubs, night sticks, etc. not referenced in use before c. 1848; by 1956 called policemans club. As far as I can see these were notably shorter and while the carved furrows at the handle are compellingly similar to those on these shorter batons , no evidence of the enlarged cylindrical head area. Back to tribal.

9th April 2025, 06:55 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 411	Tim, Could this be a tool for mashing food stuffs in a container? The barrel end looks too small to be a useful striking surface at the specific range. Just a guess, Ed

9th April 2025, 07:40 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,840	Could easy mash your face and head.

9th April 2025, 09:00 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,173	Remember the old rolling pin gag?

10th April 2025, 02:55 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,840	Has good grip handle to swing it that's for sure.

11th April 2025, 06:49 PM	#13
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 820	Thank you gents! I didn't know anything about clubs but thanks to your posts I do learn a lot about this most interesting subject! Question to Tim; as you collect these...are you a Bushwacker ? A fan of the Lions.....?

11th April 2025, 08:12 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,840	A bushwhacker, the lions run with much deeper pockets and tend to run in one direction.