SPANDAU BALLET

[Jim McDougall]

Years ago in Nashville, I became intrigued by WWI aviation fighters, and was studying the Lafayette Escadrille, which was a volunteer squadron flying for France, and of course the famed Red Baron of Germany.

I met an elderly man who was also interested in this topic, and who said he actually had some 'Spandau' machine guns (LMG '08) . I went to visit him, and was a bit surprised at the huge steel door that secured a room, and he took me in. I was STUNNED!!! not a 'couple' of these familiar guns we have seen on the German WWI fighter planes in books and films....but a huge wall of them...as well as allied Vickers and Lewis guns!

The last I ever heard of this, he was trying to find a home for them, and incredibly US museums were reluctant, and I think they went to the Netherlands. I have never forgotten this overwhelming experience, and wanted to share with anyone out there interested in WWI aviation and weaponry.

I playfully titled the photos I took, "Spandau Ballet" for the pop music group.
The history of the Red Baron became iconic in WWI aviation, and into pop culture in the famed Charlie Brown comics and Snoopy!

The insignia of the Lafayette Escadrille was an American Indian chief on their Nieuport 17 airplanes. This is believed to have been taken from the logo on ammunition boxes from Savage Arms Co. in New York.

[kahnjar1]

What an amazing collection!!
Here is a link with info about the Lafayette Escadrille https://www.worldwar1centennial.org/...scadrille.html
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Stu!! Wonderful link!!!
I wasnt sure about this topic as its pretty far out in left field for our usual arms related studies, but seemed worth giving it a go. You have always been key in remembering men lost in the wars, and these guys were dauntless.

[kahnjar1]

Definately on topic! Those are guns and I guess they could well be called both antique and Ethnic since they originated in Germany. Some pics from a local airshow which probably are not out of place with the topic!

[Jim McDougall]

Breathtaking photos Stu!!
The picture of the Fokker D VII brought to mind the tiny 1/72 scale air force I made (out for surgery a month) back then. I painted these rather than using decals and researched each pilots plane to be sure of them from pictures. The DVII you can see among them, the camoflage was maddening! took me over a week! I did use the rounds and crosses though/

[kahnjar1]

Great models Jim. I used to make these as a kid, but then there were not so many types available as there are now. Perhaps I should start again though I don't have much room to display them now.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Great models Jim. I used to make these as a kid, but then there were not so many types available as there are now. Perhaps I should start again though I don't have much room to display them now.
Stu

Yup, as kids making models was almost a religion, and it was an endless pursuit. My dad was a bomber pilot right into airlines as the war ended and we were literally all about aviation.
The reason I went with the 1/72 scale is that they were so small so didnt take much room.

Getting back to the machine guns, as expected hard to find, most around are the unshielded ground use types, but still horrendously expensive. The fact that this man had gotten these many years back when such things were still around (like so many things).

[kahnjar1]

Some more photos and this time of German aircraft which probably fit with the Spandau better than the British ones. The Spandau guns (replicas in this case) can clearly be seen on the Fokker Triplanes. The other British Triplane is a Sopwith.
Stu

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Definately on topic! Those are guns and I guess they could well be called both antique and Ethnic since they originated in Germany. Some pics from a local airshow which probably are not out of place with the topic!

Well, just because these guns were made in Germany i would hardly call them "Ethnographic". They are factory manufactured machine guns.
Thanks for the all the images of those magnificient flying machines. Also not "ethnographic", but still amazing aircraft and i have had a special interest in WWI airplanes since childhood.

[kronckew]

"The last I ever heard of this, he was trying to find a home for them, and incredibly US museums were reluctant"

the US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has made up its own laws infringing US Citizens abilities to own automatic weapons.


Aside from the outrageous prices those Spandaus would sell for, if ATF let him sell them at their market value, there is a $500 per item 'transfer tax' that ATF imposes on the recipient, even if they are given away. I imagine any museum would be reluctant to go thru all the paperwork involved. Hopefully the new post-election brooms will sweep clean there, and their Constitutional 'infringement' will be modified.


Currently, If you sell firearm for more than you paid for it, ATF will likely arrest and prosecute you for acting as a 'dealer' without the proper ATF licences, which is a felony, resulting in loss of ALL your firearms and terminating your ability to obtain more permanently (felons cannot own firearms) as well as fines and serious jail time. The ATF also can arbitrarily remove your licence if you have one, at their whim.


Ukraine is currently taking WW1 and earlier water cooled Spandaus/Maxims and using them in their front lines. Air cooled machine guns have limited barrel life due to heat buildup, requiring barrel replacement after just a couple hundred rounds, not a problem with water cooled WW1 style weapons which are favoured against Russian WW1 mass attack tactics. I am not sure if the air cooled ones in WW1 aircraft were sufficiently cooled by the aircraft motion & propeller wind.



In any case they are not 'ethnic', and are indeed 'European' and hence do not belong in that forum. As they (Maxims) were designed and used pre-1900, and well before WW1, in the USA and Europe, they should be discussed there, if at all.

[kahnjar1]

https://www.google.com/search?q=euro...client=gws-wiz

So acording to this, Germans are Ethnic, so the Spandau is an Ethnic weapon??

[Jim McDougall]

LOL! I wondered how long until these things came up.
I was a bit hesitant to post this because of the inherent aviation inclusion and obviously post 1900, so had become more inclined to post these kinds of military things in MISC.
As there is no European misc. nor American etc. I had been trying to post items outside the 1900 demarcation here to avoid issues. This had come up with things like my 1913 Patton sword etc. .

I suppose maybe it would good idea to make the forum title here either misc. or both European & ethnographic misc.?

In any case, its a fun topic, and I guess in my ancient age things nostalgic are keenly in mind, so I am grateful for the responses here, latitude and fun.
Wayne, amazing info, especially that these are still used!!! Incredible.
Stu, again thanks for all the amazing photos of these planes, what fun it would be to see them fly!

Time to get the "Flyboys" movie again !!!

[gp]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

https://www.google.com/search?q=euro...client=gws-wiz

So acording to this, Germans are Ethnic, so the Spandau is an Ethnic weapon??

Spandau used to be a district in Germany and since 1920 part of Berlin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandau

During the Prussian imperial days they used to have a factory there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spandau_Arsenal

[kahnjar1]

This section of the Forum has always included non weapons and as Jim says above, maybe a renaming of this section would be of help, and non weapons to be included even if they are not necessarily "Ethnic". The European Armoury section often includes relatively modern weapons without any negative comment, so why is this section limited? It would be fair to say that most items posted in any of our sections are mostly true Ethnic (native) and could also be fairly described as "Antique", but there are also those which perhaps do not fall accurately into either category. Examples would be native jewellery and other accessary items such as native headwear/helmets etc.
Those of us who collect, generally have other items which they seek comment or information on,..... items which do not fall exactly into the categorys offered
This Forum is very informative and maybe a further section could be added to cover the above.
The knowledge held by present Members is absolute gold, and should be shared openly with those who come after us. As we know there has been untold information lost for ever when the older Members pass.
Perhaps the Moderators could look at this.
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Extremely well said Stu!
These forums are all about exchanging valuable information and friendly discussion, and sometimes things are not necessarily categoric. In most cases topics which in some degree exceed defined limitations, the patience and courtesy of the members here make allowances and keep things on track. I think that should prevail, and not require more regulation necessarily.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

This section of the Forum has always included non weapons and as Jim says above, maybe a renaming of this section would be of help, and non weapons to be included even if they are not necessarily "Ethnic". The European Armoury section often includes relatively modern weapons without any negative comment, so why is this section limited? It would be fair to say that most items posted in any of our sections are mostly true Ethnic (native) and could also be fairly described as "Antique", but there are also those which perhaps do not fall accurately into either category. Examples would be native jewellery and other accessary items such as native headwear/helmets etc.
Those of us who collect, generally have other items which they seek comment or information on,..... items which do not fall exactly into the categorys offered
This Forum is very informative and maybe a further section could be added to cover the above.
The knowledge held by present Members is absolute gold, and should be shared openly with those who come after us. As we know there has been untold information lost for ever when the older Members pass.
Perhaps the Moderators could look at this.
Stu

As an afterthought perhaps the Moderators would consider dropping off the word "Ethnographic" and simply call the section "Miscellania" which would solve the issue?
Stu

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

As an afterthought perhaps the Moderators would consider dropping off the word "Ethnographic" and simply call the section "Miscellania" which would solve the issue?
Stu

BINGO!!!! and we continue

[kahnjar1]

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

What I mean is that is the exact solution!
Actually I never noticed the forum title specified ethnographic! bonk!

[kahnjar1]

Yes I understood that Jim.
As you have said, the Forum is an excellent reference point and contains a wealth of knowledge. It would be a great loss if as a result of Members passing, that it was to deminish in content. Surely allowing other interesting items to be openly discussed should not be looked upon as against the "rules", but looked upon as a way to enhance it's content and attract more active Members for the future.
Stu

[CutlassCollector]

Originally Posted by kronckew

[I][B]

Ukraine is currently taking WW1 and earlier water cooled Spandaus/Maxims and using them in their front lines. Air cooled machine guns have limited barrel life due to heat buildup, requiring barrel replacement after just a couple hundred rounds, not a problem with water cooled WW1 style weapons which are favoured against Russian WW1 mass attack tactics. I am not sure if the air cooled ones in WW1 aircraft were sufficiently cooled by the aircraft motion & propeller wind.

Great guns!

Perhaps, air cooled was a good choice for early airplanes for weight reasons. And as ammunition is also heavy, planes could not carry much so burning out the barrels not likely.
For example a fully armed WW2 Spitfire could only carry enough ammunition to fire its guns for around 20 seconds.
Skill was a crucial factor in aiming where the enemy plane was going to be not where it was, hence the training of pilots on clay pigeon shooting.

[Jim McDougall]

Stu, truly well noted and perfectly said. We have all together pretty much poured heart and souls into these forums in working to build knowledge together. While like any family we have had our ups and downs, the huge core of knowledge collected on these pages and archived will hopefully remain a resource found by those who will follow us, and help them as the continue the work we have all shared.

Thank you CC for the nudge back to topic, and very well made point, the Spandau for use in these planes had to have been air cooled as the weight of water would have been too much. It does not seem they carried an excessive weight of ammunition either. As I mentioned, there was a 'counter' which kept count of the number of rounds spent.
There do not seem to have been the 'guns blazing' scenes naturally employed often in depictions of air battles, and it was more the minimal rat-tat-tat, short bursts more accurately portrayed.
That being the case, the overheating of barrels would not have been a likely problem as you note.

Most of the Spandau's I have seen offered in sales seem to be more the ground use versions, most of which do not have the familiar heat shields covering the barrel. Having noted that, it seems curious that these 'aviation' guns as used would not have needed such a feature as the barrels were not likely to overheat.
Perhaps these heat shield surrounds on these guns for use on these planes were indeed to perhaps capture the air passing over the gun as useful in air cooling the barrel?

Looking into cooling of the allied guns.

[Jim McDougall]

Just looked further on the cooling dilemma so wanted to add as we look more into this:
Apparently the LEWIS guns were indeed air cooled and actually DID have a heat shroud.
What I found says these had a finned cast aluminum 'heat sink' around the barrel covered by a tubular heat shroud.This was open at both ends to allow air to be drawn in and pass through and over the cooling fins to dissipate radiated heat.

There seems to have been a misconception that the shroud held water, since disproven according to the online source.

These Lewis guns were produced in Belgium but later also by the Savage Arms Co. in New York, previously mentioned with the Indian chief with headdress logo they used and adopted by the famed Lafayette Escadrille.

As a side note on these early machine guns, not related to these larger aviation guns, on the Thompson sub machine gun.
Years ago in the early days of my career in airline passenger service, pre-security, guns were often carried aboard flights, and until the first hijackings there seemed little concern.
I can recall one instance where a guy was transporting with him, one of these THOMPSON'S!!! but without the drum ubiquitous in the familiar 'mobster' scenes. While it seemed unusual, but notable at the time, looking back at that instance now, it seems incredibly bizarre!
To indulge this digression slightly further, one old gentleman who had been an FBI agent in the 30s, had amazing tales and told me that in the 'city' they only used service revolvers, and only used the 'tommies' in more rural situations. I wished I had more time to talk with him but as always in airports, time dominates.

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

This section of the Forum has always included non weapons and as Jim says above, maybe a renaming of this section would be of help, and non weapons to be included even if they are not necessarily "Ethnic". The European Armoury section often includes relatively modern weapons without any negative comment, so why is this section limited? It would be fair to say that most items posted in any of our sections are mostly true Ethnic (native) and could also be fairly described as "Antique", but there are also those which perhaps do not fall accurately into either category. Examples would be native jewellery and other accessary items such as native headwear/helmets etc.
Those of us who collect, generally have other items which they seek comment or information on,..... items which do not fall exactly into the categorys offered
This Forum is very informative and maybe a further section could be added to cover the above.
The knowledge held by present Members is absolute gold, and should be shared openly with those who come after us. As we know there has been untold information lost for ever when the older Members pass.
Perhaps the Moderators could look at this.
Stu

Stu, i wasn't making a negative comment, simply pointing out that a military machine gun is not an ethnographic weapon. No one is limiting you on what is being discussed here and no one but you have brought up the question of forum "rules". If it was my intention to suggest this discussion should be shut down i would have clearly said so in very clear language. There is also a huge difference in the meaning of "ethnic" vs "ethnographic" and Ethnographic is the category that this forum is dedicated to. Still, this is the Miscellaneous Forum so there is certainly room for discuss on items beyond our usual purview. But purely for discussion's sake let's be real here. Simply because a weapon has been made in a country that has a unique ethnicity does not mean that the weapon in question displays that unique ethnicity in it's design or function. There is nothing in the design of the Spandau machine gun that speaks specifically to German culture.
As for those who collect military weapons and memorabilia, there are tons of forums out there dedicated to such discussions. I don't think we are at risk of seeing information on such weapons being lost at any point in the immediate future.
But please, carry on. As i clearly pointed out before, WWI air warfare has always been a personal interest of mine and i am enjoy this thread, especially all the images of the aircraft you posted.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by David

Stu, i wasn't making a negative comment, simply pointing out that a military machine gun is not an ethnographic weapon. No one is limiting you on what is being discussed here and no one but you have brought up the question of forum "rules". If it was my intention to suggest this discussion should be shut down i would have clearly said so in very clear language. There is also a huge difference in the meaning of "ethnic" vs "ethnographic" and Ethnographic is the category that this forum is dedicated to. Still, this is the Miscellaneous Forum so there is certainly room for discuss on items beyond our usual purview. But purely for discussion's sake let's be real here. Simply because a weapon has been made in a country that has a unique ethnicity does not mean that the weapon in question displays that unique ethnicity in it's design or function. There is nothing in the design of the Spandau machine gun that speaks specifically to German culture.
As for those who collect military weapons and memorabilia, there are tons of forums out there dedicated to such discussions. I don't think we are at risk of seeing information on such weapons being lost at any point in the immediate future.
But please, carry on. As i clearly pointed out before, WWI air warfare has always been a personal interest of mine and i am enjoy this thread, especially all the images of the aircraft you posted.

Thank you David. I am not in the business of trying to stir up trouble or argue the views of the Moderators, but simply trying to point out that IMHO the Miscellaneous section conveys to me that it is just that...Miscellaneous. I am perhaps afraid that as our older Member pass (I am about to turn 81) large amounts of knowledge for those who follow us will be lost. Maybe the Moderators would seriously consider either changing the title of this section, or as an alternative add a further category which would allow discussion of more recently (but still ANTIQUE) items to be openly discussed.
I accept that the title of the Website is "Ethnographic" and not "Ethnic" and there are other sites which deal in what I would call modern weapons, but I would like to think that items produced up to the late 19th century could perhaps be included here. Some are already, in the European Armoury section such as military swords so where does one draw the line?
I respect the Rules as they exist, but wonder if perhaps with the passing of time that they maybe could be revisited to possibly include a wider range of items accepted for discussion.
Stu

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just looked further on the cooling dilemma so wanted to add as we look more into this:
Apparently the LEWIS guns were indeed air cooled and actually DID have a heat shroud.
What I found says these had a finned cast aluminum 'heat sink' around the barrel covered by a tubular heat shroud.This was open at both ends to allow air to be drawn in and pass through and over the cooling fins to dissipate radiated heat.

There seems to have been a misconception that the shroud held water, since disproven according to the online source.

These Lewis guns were produced in Belgium but later also by the Savage Arms Co. in New York, previously mentioned with the Indian chief with headdress logo they used and adopted by the famed Lafayette Escadrille.

As a side note on these early machine guns, not related to these larger aviation guns, on the Thompson sub machine gun.
Years ago in the early days of my career in airline passenger service, pre-security, guns were often carried aboard flights, and until the first hijackings there seemed little concern.
I can recall one instance where a guy was transporting with him, one of these THOMPSON'S!!! but without the drum ubiquitous in the familiar 'mobster' scenes. While it seemed unusual, but notable at the time, looking back at that instance now, it seems incredibly bizarre!
To indulge this digression slightly further, one old gentleman who had been an FBI agent in the 30s, had amazing tales and told me that in the 'city' they only used service revolvers, and only used the 'tommies' in more rural situations. I wished I had more time to talk with him but as always in airports, time dominates.

NICE A friend of mine has one of these in full operational order. The Lewis was used extensivly in WW2 also and was often twin mounted and used this way by (notibly) the Long Range Desert Group mounted on their Jeeps and trucks.
Stu

[Rick]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

https://www.google.com/search?q=euro...client=gws-wiz

So acording to this, Germans are Ethnic, so the Spandau is an Ethnic weapon??

Speaking of ethnicity.
This cartoon of Europe must be from the WW1 era.

[werecow]

The subscript reads: "The mad house (old song, new tune)"

[David]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thank you David. I am not in the business of trying to stir up trouble or argue the views of the Moderators, but simply trying to point out that IMHO the Miscellaneous section conveys to me that it is just that...Miscellaneous. I am perhaps afraid that as our older Member pass (I am about to turn 81) large amounts of knowledge for those who follow us will be lost. Maybe the Moderators would seriously consider either changing the title of this section, or as an alternative add a further category which would allow discussion of more recently (but still ANTIQUE) items to be openly discussed.
I accept that the title of the Website is "Ethnographic" and not "Ethnic" and there are other sites which deal in what I would call modern weapons, but I would like to think that items produced up to the late 19th century could perhaps be included here. Some are already, in the European Armoury section such as military swords so where does one draw the line?
I respect the Rules as they exist, but wonder if perhaps with the passing of time that they maybe could be revisited to possibly include a wider range of items accepted for discussion.
Stu

Hi Stu. I believe you are operating under a misconception. AFAIK, the word "antique" doesn't appear anywhere in the forum titles or the general rules about posting. Not only are items produced in the late 19th century quite often included on our forums, but on the Keris Forum at least, we frequently discuss 20th and 21st century keris, even ones made just yesterday. So there is no line there at all. Ethnographic has nothing to do with the age of the weapon. They are simply weapons that are specific to a particular culture that reflect the values, craft and design that are a unique part of those cultures. And for the most part they are not factory made items such as modern military weaponry.
Now again, i am not stating this to squash the current discussion here. Please continue as it seems you and others (and even myself in some aspects) are enjoying this threads and it does appear in the Miscellaneous Section after all. However, i see no reason to drop the "Ethnographic" from the name of this particular forum as we are indeed a website dedicated specifically to ethnographic weapons and armour. As i mentioned before, there are tons of sites out there that focus on modern Military weaponry, bith very specifically and generally that are doing a great job preserving the knowledge of WWI and WWII guns and aircraft. That simply is not the focus of this website. And just as you mention the passing of members and your own age, we moderators are just as antique as some of the weapons we post. As i'm sure you know we just lost one of our beloved team and are understaffed as it is. So expanding and adding new categories outside of the scope of Ethnographic Weapons is not really feasible or practical. Asking a forum that is focussed on Ethnographic Weapons to open up a new forum for people to discuss manufactured military machine guns is like asking a forum for Folk Music to add a section to discuss Prog Rock. There is a place for everything.
I would ask at this point that if you wish to continue discussing this further that you make a PM directly to members of the Moderation Team rather than continuing it here. Forum policy is not to be discussed in the open forums. Thanks!

[werecow]

Originally Posted by Rick

Speaking of ethnicity.
This cartoon of Europe must be from the WW1 era.

Someone from another unrelated forum I frequent found the following description online:

This fascinating propaganda map was created by Louis Raemaekers, a famous Dutch cartoonist, at the beginning of World War I. Early in the war Raemaekers crossed the border into Belgium to witness first-hand the brutality of the advancing Germans. Despite Holland's neutrality, the atrocities Raemaekers witnessed compelled him to create anti-German cartoons. The cartoons depicted such harsh critiques of the Germans, that Germany demanded that Holland put Raemaekers on trial for compromising Dutch neutrality, and even put a bounty of 12,000 Guilders for his capture, dead or alive. Raemaekers was acquitted and fled to London to continue his work. During the war he created hundreds of political cartoons, which were distributed on posters, postcards, brochures, and in newspapers and magazines. The dissemination of his work is considered one of the most extensive propaganda activities of World War I.

The title of this map translates roughly as: "The Insane Asylum (Old Song, New Tune)" referring to Holland's perspective of the war waging around them. Although Holland is depicted sitting peacefully, smoking a pipe, he is holding a gun and keeps an ever-watchful eye on his neighbor. In contrast, Portugal and Spain are embroiled in their own affairs, ignoring the unrest around them. France and Germany are engaged in a fist-fight, while the British Isles are depicted as a strong, fierce Highlander. Italy and a giant Russia appear to be playing tug-of-war with the Austro-Hungarian Empire. After declaring itself neutral at the onset of the war, the Ottoman Empire accepted military support from Germany, causing the Allies to declare war on the Ottoman Empire. The situation caused disorder within the Empire, which is cleverly depicted here with a Turk cutting his own throat with a sword stamped "Made in Germany." Each country is cleverly depicted as a human figure - all of which are male except for the gentle Norway and Sweden and the islands of Corsica and Sardinia. Published by Senefelder. Issued in brown paper wrappers.