Best Arabic Shamshir/Dagger reference book, please?

ALEX · 24th April 2006, 11:39 AM

I am looking for a best Arabic Shamshir/Dagger reference book. In particular, more-or-less in-depth coverage of workmanship details, such as scabbards, hilts, cartouches/maker stamps, etc.
Below are several books I am aware of. Any suggestions, and/or other references, guys?

1. Anthony C. Tirri new book: ISLAMIC WEAPONS Maghrib to Moghul.
Is it too basic?
2. Islamic Arms and Armour by Robert Elgood.
Does it worth $300?
3. ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS. By Unsal Yucel.
Looks like a good one, but hard to find too.
4. The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries by Robert Elgood.
5. Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking: Kindi's Treatise on Swords and Their Kinds (Hardcover) by Robert G. Hoyland, Brian Gilmour.

M.carter · 24th April 2006, 12:06 PM

Sources for arabic suyuff would be the books you listed, except number 1 which hasnt got anything except a few fancy pics. Also, get reading on this great forum, and sword forum as well, you will learn alot, and if you are really into it, travel to Syria and S.Arabia, there you can learn stuff first hand.

Also, if you have any inquiries, feel free to contact me.

Jim McDougall · 24th April 2006, 05:10 PM

Hi Alex,
In my opinion, the Elgood books are absolutely essential. I know that some individuals will question certain items, but Robert Elgood's scholarship in my opinion in virtually flawless. I know how hard he works at establishing his facts, his field research and amazingly detailed footnotes. While prices and values are best not discussed here, I cannot emphasize the importance of these books enough for the research you are describing.

The Tirri book is excellently produced, and carrys profuse illustrations of a vast spectrum of weapons, many somewhat obscure and mostly well captioned. Since the weapons shown are typically of the grade usually found by collectors, the book is excellent as a guide for identification. Most arms books focus on high grade weapons typically in museums etc. that only offer basic similarities to the weapons found among the rank and file, so this book is great at typology.It unfortunately does not offer references, footnotes or other helpful academic material, but the written introductory text is well done.

The Uncel book is excellent, and again essential for Islamic swords. Well illustrated and documented.

The still readily available book "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (ed. Michael Coe) is admittedly a general overview, but I think the chapters written by experts in various fields are well done. Anthony North does very well in the chapter on Islamic weapons, Mr. Richardson on China and SE Asia, and Mr. Wilkinson on India. In the study of Islamic weapons, it is important to note how closely related the weapons of these spheres really are. In this book, as in the Elgood books, the bibliographies are outstanding and will provide exactly the course needed to extend your studies.
Its all adventure!!!

All the best,
Jim

P.S. the more specific details on cartouches, markings etc. are found only loosely within various works. There are no specific catalogs or books that focus on these that I am aware of, and as noted, the knowledgable members here are always glad to help with specific questions.

M.carter · 24th April 2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Alex,
In my opinion, the Elgood books are absolutely essential. I know that some individuals will question certain items,

Jim McDougall · 24th April 2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

I knew you were watchin' ya rascal!!!!

All the best ,
Jim

ALEX · 25th April 2006, 05:04 PM

Jim,

First and foremost - thank you for your comprehensive response. It helps a lot.
Similarly to revived art of wootz forging, the art of making the rest, i.e. scabbards, crossguards and hilts is catching up (and forging is a good term to use here).

M.C. as for Syria as being a great place to learn, I'd say it's a great place to learn commerce, not swords. ALL dealers will "teach" into buying what they want to sell. ALL of them making swords by mixing old blades with another old or semi-old, and most frequently newly made parts, and they know how to make them look old. And the stories are even more amazing than the wootz itself. Just a few tiny shops have real nice Persian wootz blades - all are for Saudi market, or for unreasonable price. That is why I am looking for a good reference book. It'll not help anyway (those guys use them as reference as well), but I'd rather read it from someone who knows than hear it from someone who sells.

M.carter · 25th April 2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Jim,

M.C. as for Syria as being a great place to learn, I'd say it's a great place to learn commerce, not swords. ALL dealers will "teach" into buying what they want to sell. ALL of them making swords by mixing old blades with another old or semi-old, and most frequently newly made parts, and they know how to make them look old. And the stories are even more amazing than the wootz itself. Just a few tiny shops have real nice Persian wootz blades - all are for Saudi market, or for unreasonable price. That is why I am looking for a good reference book. It'll not help anyway (those guys use them as reference as well), but I'd rather read it from someone who knows than hear it from someone who sells.

Well that will help you in a way

its as if you are in a test, to find out which swords are fully authentic. Many western tourists dont realise that prices in eastern culture are never set in stone. I bought a newly made sword, with silver koftgari from there, its list price was about $235, I got it for about $145

Never listen to the dealers there, for a start, if you're interested in arab swords, you will probably know more than they do, and know what each sword's true value is. Many of the dealers over there cant tell if the blade was European, Persian, or local made, and that varies the price ALOT. They just recognize, if its wootz, or plain. As you said, many small shops have nice wootz blades, which are bought in Saudi Arabia, and re-fitted with Saudi fittings. However, if you get to know some dealers, some have huge warehouses which are filled with antiquities, including huge quantities of wootz bladed swords, at good prices too.

Besides, if you go there, you're not going to buy, you're going to handle and learn, so whatever the sellers brag about, just tell 'em that you're gonna take a look around, and come back

ALEX · 26th April 2006, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

However, if you get to know some dealers, some have huge warehouses which are filled with antiquities, including huge quantities of wootz bladed swords, at good prices too.

M.C. Thank you - You are absolutely right. This is good, and always wise, approach. As far as huge quantities of wootz blades, or any blades in fact, I think it's a reference to the past. Perhaps not too long ago it was true, BUT just like in Istanbul, NOT NOW. I've been told they were buying wootz by weight, not quality and quantity. Now it's so rare, that my friend, who recently visited Damascus, could not find ANYTHING decent or affordable there.. When have you been there?

M.carter · 26th April 2006, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

M.C. Thank you - You are absolutely right. This is good, and always wise, approach. As far as huge quantities of wootz blades, or any blades in fact, I think it's a reference to the past. Perhaps not too long ago it was true, BUT just like in Istanbul, NOT NOW. I've been told they were buying wootz by weight, not quality and quantity. Now it's so rare, that my friend, who recently visited Damascus, could not find ANYTHING decent or affordable there.. When have you been there?

2004 was the last time I was there, I did find two of those warehouses. One which was filled with Ottoman furniture, and within the cupboards and the drawers of that furniture were hundreds of swords, all wootz. Of all kinds, Persian wootz, Turkish wootz, and even sham wootz, all with old silver fittings, one was identical to one ive seen on Artzi's site. Most of the swords were at about 20,000 pounds, which is like $400, and that was the first price, no negotiation yet

I still wonder why I didnt buy any....

ALEX · 26th April 2006, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

I still wonder why I didnt buy any....

M.C., we're both a few years late. Nothing is less than $2000 now. And it's for the blade alone, and if you'll find a decent one. But there are still plenty of furniture left

24th April 2006, 11:39 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Best Arabic Shamshir/Dagger reference book, please? I am looking for a best Arabic Shamshir/Dagger reference book. In particular, more-or-less in-depth coverage of workmanship details, such as scabbards, hilts, cartouches/maker stamps, etc. Below are several books I am aware of. Any suggestions, and/or other references, guys? 1. Anthony C. Tirri new book: ISLAMIC WEAPONS Maghrib to Moghul. Is it too basic? 2. Islamic Arms and Armour by Robert Elgood. Does it worth $300? 3. ISLAMIC SWORDS AND SWORDSMITHS. By Unsal Yucel. Looks like a good one, but hard to find too. 4. The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries by Robert Elgood. 5. Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking: Kindi's Treatise on Swords and Their Kinds (Hardcover) by Robert G. Hoyland, Brian Gilmour.

24th April 2006, 12:06 PM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Sources for arabic suyuff would be the books you listed, except number 1 which hasnt got anything except a few fancy pics. Also, get reading on this great forum, and sword forum as well, you will learn alot, and if you are really into it, travel to Syria and S.Arabia, there you can learn stuff first hand. Also, if you have any inquiries, feel free to contact me.

24th April 2006, 05:10 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,942	Hi Alex, In my opinion, the Elgood books are absolutely essential. I know that some individuals will question certain items, but Robert Elgood's scholarship in my opinion in virtually flawless. I know how hard he works at establishing his facts, his field research and amazingly detailed footnotes. While prices and values are best not discussed here, I cannot emphasize the importance of these books enough for the research you are describing. The Tirri book is excellently produced, and carrys profuse illustrations of a vast spectrum of weapons, many somewhat obscure and mostly well captioned. Since the weapons shown are typically of the grade usually found by collectors, the book is excellent as a guide for identification. Most arms books focus on high grade weapons typically in museums etc. that only offer basic similarities to the weapons found among the rank and file, so this book is great at typology.It unfortunately does not offer references, footnotes or other helpful academic material, but the written introductory text is well done. The Uncel book is excellent, and again essential for Islamic swords. Well illustrated and documented. The still readily available book "Swords and Hilt Weapons" (ed. Michael Coe) is admittedly a general overview, but I think the chapters written by experts in various fields are well done. Anthony North does very well in the chapter on Islamic weapons, Mr. Richardson on China and SE Asia, and Mr. Wilkinson on India. In the study of Islamic weapons, it is important to note how closely related the weapons of these spheres really are. In this book, as in the Elgood books, the bibliographies are outstanding and will provide exactly the course needed to extend your studies. Its all adventure!!! All the best, Jim P.S. the more specific details on cartouches, markings etc. are found only loosely within various works. There are no specific catalogs or books that focus on these that I am aware of, and as noted, the knowledgable members here are always glad to help with specific questions.

25th April 2006, 05:04 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jim, First and foremost - thank you for your comprehensive response. It helps a lot. Similarly to revived art of wootz forging, the art of making the rest, i.e. scabbards, crossguards and hilts is catching up (and forging is a good term to use here). M.C. as for Syria as being a great place to learn, I'd say it's a great place to learn commerce, not swords. ALL dealers will "teach" into buying what they want to sell. ALL of them making swords by mixing old blades with another old or semi-old, and most frequently newly made parts, and they know how to make them look old. And the stories are even more amazing than the wootz itself. Just a few tiny shops have real nice Persian wootz blades - all are for Saudi market, or for unreasonable price. That is why I am looking for a good reference book. It'll not help anyway (those guys use them as reference as well), but I'd rather read it from someone who knows than hear it from someone who sells.