Dha: Origin? Age?

ariel · 23rd April 2006, 02:20 AM

My question is to everybody but especially to our esteemed Dhafiosos.
Here is a Dha (Dahb?) with a fully metal, brass( or bronze, never know the difference) turned handle. A segment is finely checkered. There is a brass (bronze? I am getting boring...) insert in the spine of the the blade, close to the handle.
How old? Where from?

Ian · 23rd April 2006, 03:09 AM

Hi Ariel:

Where: N. Thailand
When: Mid to late 20th C.

The solid brass handle is one of a kind IMO. It shows a mix of machining methods, with most of it having been turned on a lathe, although the checkering may have been done on another machine.

Definitely not an antique blade. The thin lines running the length of the blade and the squiggly "S" designs are all recent Thai embellishments that are not found much before the 1960s. There are older vines and vegetal designs that look a little like these, but they are clearly distinguished as incised designs whereas these "S" shapes have been punched into the blade.

These blades are generally of low quality, often unhardened. Don't try to cut anything with it.

The inset brass along the spine, often accompanied by incised lines and "X"s, is an older decoration perhaps dating from about 1900 or a little earlier. Again, typical N. Thai work.

Lots of these blades came back with GIs returning from Vietnam. Sometimes folks did not like the turned wooden handles on these swords and they replaced them with various materials. I have one rehilted in stag. Another that has been bolted to the tang. I've seen others rehilted with a D-guard, contoured grips, etc. I think someone along the line was taking machine shop and needed a project -- so he turned out this brass handle and stuck it on the end of his souvenir Thai daab. Then he sanded back the black painted scabbard to make it look more authentic and old.

Ian.

PUFF · 24th April 2006, 06:30 AM

I like the "project Dahb" idea.

Titus Pullo · 26th April 2006, 02:09 AM

The blade looks Siamese, and so does the handle. On Thai handle if there is a nob at the end, it's always pointier than others. I'm not sure what's the significance of that, but it may have to do with Hindu influence; maybe it signifies what the Hindus call civalinga, or something!

Andrew · 26th April 2006, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus Pullo

The blade looks Siamese, and so does the handle. On Thai handle if there is a nob at the end, it's always pointier than others. I'm not sure what's the significance of that, but it may have to do with Hindu influence; maybe it signifies what the Hindus call civalinga, or something!

Hi Titus.

Could you clarify what you mean by the terms "Siamese" and "Thai". Are you making a distinction between the two (i.e. time period) or using them synonymously?

Also, which others are you referring to when you say the Thai knobs are always pointier?

The possible Hindu Shiva lignum influence is something I hadn't considered previously. Could you expand on this or is it just an idle thought?

Thanks,
Andrew

Titus Pullo · 26th April 2006, 02:36 AM

Actually, I was using the term Siamese and Thai interchangabally. Siam was renamed Thailand after a military general dictator came to power.

And to answer your question! Yes, in Siam there is a hint of Hindu influence in Buddhism from the early Khmer empire, I believe. Previously, the Khmers were Hindu, but later adopted the Mon Therevada buddhism. Somehow, if I'm not mistaken, the two religeons melded together also in the Khmer empire. If you look at even the chess game they play in Thailand...the thing is always very pointy like the end of the sword handle. I think that's only in Thailand that is widely seen because Thai people are very religeous and superstitious! [laugh!] During the Ayutthaya period, and even during the early Rattanakosin era until today, most of the religeous cermonies were performed by Brahmans.

Andrew · 26th April 2006, 04:54 AM

Thanks, Titus. I'm curious as to whether you're basing your theory on any concrete link between the sword pommels and lignum. Is there any Thai sources establishing that pommels of this type are styled after flower buds?

PUFF · 26th April 2006, 07:24 AM

The point pommel depicts lotus, a scared symbol for both Brahmin and Buddhist. There 's a theory that the lotus was evolved into round, conical and flower with many petals. (Just talked with Khun Bancha not long ago

)

Siamese and Thai 's interchangable for me. But I would prefer to associate the term Siamese with the pre 19th cent., when the Siam kingdom was Feudalism. And I will use Thai for the later era, when the boarder line between countries was firmly established (by English and French colonies).

Andrew · 26th April 2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PUFF

The point pommel depicts lotus, a scared symbol for both Brahmin and Buddhist. There 's a theory that the lotus was evolved into round, conical and flower with many petals. (Just talked with Khun Bancha not long ago

)

Thanks, PUFF. This was my understanding as well, but I wanted to encourage Titus to explore his theory with us, as it presented a novel approach.

Quote:

Siamese and Thai 's interchangable for me. But I would prefer to associate the term Siamese with the pre 19th cent., when the Siam kingdom was Feudalism. And I will use Thai for the later era, when the boarder line between countries was firmly established (by English and French colonies).

Sounds good to me.

Mark · 26th April 2006, 04:07 PM

Some pommels definitely lotus blossoms, as the petals are distinctly shown. Others are more abstract. In the Ratanakosin period the pommels became essentially spherical, with perhaps a small button at the tip:

I see the possibility that these rounder ones might be representing the linga. A very interesting theory.

And what about this style? It looks like a conch, or a stupa to me:

It is a northern style (Lanna).

Titus Pullo · 27th April 2006, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Thanks, Titus. I'm curious as to whether you're basing your theory on any concrete link between the sword pommels and lignum. Is there any Thai sources establishing that pommels of this type are styled after flower buds?

A lot of the stuff I read from travel magazines from Thailand. I also have books on the designs and architectures of the classical Siamese from the Sukothai, Lanna, Ayutthaya, and right up to the Rattanakosin era. I've also read some online, about Thailand history. My mom and relatives and also Thai satelite channel are other sources i get info from.

I hope I answers your question!

Andrew · 27th April 2006, 04:50 AM

Actually, it does, Titus. Thank you, again. You bring an insightful and interesting perspective to these discussions, and you clearly have experience and access to materials I've not seen. I hope my questioning doesn't offend, as I am truly interested. It is sometimes difficult to understand where someone is coming from unless they qualify their comments as opinion or reveal how they arrived there.

23rd April 2006, 02:20 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dha: Origin? Age? My question is to everybody but especially to our esteemed Dhafiosos. Here is a Dha (Dahb?) with a fully metal, brass( or bronze, never know the difference) turned handle. A segment is finely checkered. There is a brass (bronze? I am getting boring...) insert in the spine of the the blade, close to the handle. How old? Where from? Attached Images

23rd April 2006, 03:09 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,140	Mid to late 20th C. Thai -- decorative item only Hi Ariel: Where: N. Thailand When: Mid to late 20th C. The solid brass handle is one of a kind IMO. It shows a mix of machining methods, with most of it having been turned on a lathe, although the checkering may have been done on another machine. Definitely not an antique blade. The thin lines running the length of the blade and the squiggly "S" designs are all recent Thai embellishments that are not found much before the 1960s. There are older vines and vegetal designs that look a little like these, but they are clearly distinguished as incised designs whereas these "S" shapes have been punched into the blade. These blades are generally of low quality, often unhardened. Don't try to cut anything with it. The inset brass along the spine, often accompanied by incised lines and "X"s, is an older decoration perhaps dating from about 1900 or a little earlier. Again, typical N. Thai work. Lots of these blades came back with GIs returning from Vietnam. Sometimes folks did not like the turned wooden handles on these swords and they replaced them with various materials. I have one rehilted in stag. Another that has been bolted to the tang. I've seen others rehilted with a D-guard, contoured grips, etc. I think someone along the line was taking machine shop and needed a project -- so he turned out this brass handle and stuck it on the end of his souvenir Thai daab. Then he sanded back the black painted scabbard to make it look more authentic and old. Ian.

24th April 2006, 06:30 AM	#3
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	I like the "project Dahb" idea.

26th April 2006, 02:09 AM	#4
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	The blade looks Siamese, and so does the handle. On Thai handle if there is a nob at the end, it's always pointier than others. I'm not sure what's the significance of that, but it may have to do with Hindu influence; maybe it signifies what the Hindus call civalinga, or something!

26th April 2006, 02:36 AM	#6
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	Actually, I was using the term Siamese and Thai interchangabally. Siam was renamed Thailand after a military general dictator came to power. And to answer your question! Yes, in Siam there is a hint of Hindu influence in Buddhism from the early Khmer empire, I believe. Previously, the Khmers were Hindu, but later adopted the Mon Therevada buddhism. Somehow, if I'm not mistaken, the two religeons melded together also in the Khmer empire. If you look at even the chess game they play in Thailand...the thing is always very pointy like the end of the sword handle. I think that's only in Thailand that is widely seen because Thai people are very religeous and superstitious! [laugh!] During the Ayutthaya period, and even during the early Rattanakosin era until today, most of the religeous cermonies were performed by Brahmans.

26th April 2006, 04:54 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks, Titus. I'm curious as to whether you're basing your theory on any concrete link between the sword pommels and lignum. Is there any Thai sources establishing that pommels of this type are styled after flower buds?

26th April 2006, 07:24 AM	#8
PUFF Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand Posts: 224	The point pommel depicts lotus, a scared symbol for both Brahmin and Buddhist. There 's a theory that the lotus was evolved into round, conical and flower with many petals. (Just talked with Khun Bancha not long ago ) Siamese and Thai 's interchangable for me. But I would prefer to associate the term Siamese with the pre 19th cent., when the Siam kingdom was Feudalism. And I will use Thai for the later era, when the boarder line between countries was firmly established (by English and French colonies).

26th April 2006, 04:07 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Some pommels definitely lotus blossoms, as the petals are distinctly shown. Others are more abstract. In the Ratanakosin period the pommels became essentially spherical, with perhaps a small button at the tip: I see the possibility that these rounder ones might be representing the linga. A very interesting theory. And what about this style? It looks like a conch, or a stupa to me: It is a northern style (Lanna).

27th April 2006, 04:50 AM	#12
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Actually, it does, Titus. Thank you, again. You bring an insightful and interesting perspective to these discussions, and you clearly have experience and access to materials I've not seen. I hope my questioning doesn't offend, as I am truly interested. It is sometimes difficult to understand where someone is coming from unless they qualify their comments as opinion or reveal how they arrived there.