Need help to identify a knife from Congo

Sajen · 14th October 2016, 08:41 PM

Have get today some Congo knives from a german auction house, three from them I am able to determine but one I never have seen before and can't find it in my books. I would me more as beholden when someone would be able to help me. Here some pictures, the piece is approx. 40 cm long.

colin henshaw · 15th October 2016, 08:25 AM

Hi Detlef

Sorry to be negative ... but this piece doesn't look right to me. The carved figure is quite crude, and from the images it looks stuck onto the blade with some sort of pitch or tar. Could the blade have started out life as a spearhead ?

Perhaps a made for selling object ?

But I'm not an expert, so might be mistaken.

Regards
Colin

Sajen · 15th October 2016, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

Hi Detlef

Sorry to be negative ... but this piece doesn't look right to me. The carved figure is quite crude, and from the images it looks stuck onto the blade with some sort of pitch or tar. Could the blade have started out life as a spearhead ?

Perhaps a made for selling object ?

But I'm not an expert, so might be mistaken.

Regards
Colin

Hi Colin,

thank you very much! I've asked so I am thankful for your answer and you will be correct, I've get yesterday already a mail from a member who told me that it is a fantasy product. But your suggestion that it could be a spearhead seems plausible. And yes, the handle is attached by some sort of pitch. Could be worked for selling purpose but already some time ago, the piece coming with three other quite good pieces from a german auction house. Maybe from a small collection and when it is like this I am not the first person who get "duped".

Best regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 15th October 2016, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

..., the piece coming with three other quite good pieces from a german auction house.

Here a picture together with the other pieces I've won by the auction.

Miguel · 15th October 2016, 09:07 PM

Hi Detlef,

Nice little collection. I love Congolese weapons and although I do not know that much about them, to me, they are the embodiment of ethnographic weapons

If I had my time over again that is what I would study and collect.
Having said that I have searched for a knife like the first one you posted and have to agree with Colin but the other three look like the real thing to me and could be Saka, Mangbetu and Zande although more knowledgeable members might think differently. Thank you for shaing I love them.
Regards
Miguel

Sajen · 15th October 2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

.... and could be Saka, Mangbetu and Zande although more knowledgeable members might think differently. Thank you for shaing I love them.

Hi Miguel,

thank you very much! To my knowledge you have them correct identified!

Best regards,
Detlef

VANDOO · 16th October 2016, 04:23 AM

AFRICAN WEAPONS HAVE MORE VARIATIONS THAN JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE. THERE ARE THE CLASSIC FORMS SUCH AS THE OTHER EXAMPLES IN YOUR PICTURE. THERE ARE GOOD OLD EXAMPLES OF THESE CLASSIC FORMS AND MORE RECENT ONES AS THEY ARE STILL MADE. THE QUALITY VARIES ON OLD AND MORE RECENT EXAMPLES AS WELL. THEN THERE ARE ITEMS LIKE THE DAGGER YOU ARE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION ON. SOME OF THESE ARE NATIVE MADE FOR LOCAL USE, SOME ARE PUT TOGETHER WITH FRESHLY MADE WOOD HANDLES FOR SALE. YOUR EXAMPLE LOOKS LIKE THE NATIVE MADE VARIETY TO ME AND LIKELY CEREMONIAL. THE REASON I GUESS THIS IS THE HANDLE APPEARS TO HAVE GOOD OLD PATINA AND THE SPEAR BLADE LOOKS OLDER AS WELL. THE HANDLE IS SIMILAR IN SHAPE AND FORM TO THE LARGE KNIFE AT THE TOP OF YOUR PICTURE OF THE GROUP OF KNIVES. TO ME THAT INDICATES IT WAS CARVED IN THE SHAPE OF THAT KNIFE FORMS HANDLE WITH A VARIATION HUMAN HEAD SO MAY BE FROM THAT TRIBE. SOMEONE NEEDED A KNIFE AND HAD A SPARE SPEAR POINT AND CARVED A HANDLE AND LIKELY MADE A SCABBARD FOR IT. RESEARCH SHOULD HELP YOU PIN IT DOWN AS THE CARVING IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE TRIBE WHO MADE IT, SO HAIR DO AND FORM MAY HELP. I WOULD NOT BE TOO QUICK TO WRITE IT OFF AS JUST ANOTHER TOURIST SOUVENIR. THESE ARE JUST MY OBSERVATIONS SO FURTHER RESEARCH AND INSPECTION IN HAND WILL HELP YOU MAKE A BETTER DETERMINATION

Tim Simmons · 16th October 2016, 08:22 AM

I think what makes Colin question this piece is, to my eye what you have is a spear point mounted as a knife. This is often found .

Sajen · 16th October 2016, 10:27 AM

Hello Barry And Tim,

thank you both for comment and your good thoughts about this dagger. In the meanwhile and closer inspection of this piece, special the patina at the handle and the sort of pitch which is used for attaching the handle to the possible spear point I am nearly convinced that you are correct, this "dagger" seems native compiled.

Best regards,
Detlef

Robert · 22nd October 2016, 05:17 AM

As I have been informed that one or more of these items might be offered for sale I am closing this thread until further notice.

Best,
Robert

14th October 2016, 08:41 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Need help to identify a knife from Congo Have get today some Congo knives from a german auction house, three from them I am able to determine but one I never have seen before and can't find it in my books. I would me more as beholden when someone would be able to help me. Here some pictures, the piece is approx. 40 cm long. Attached Images

15th October 2016, 08:25 AM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Detlef Sorry to be negative ... but this piece doesn't look right to me. The carved figure is quite crude, and from the images it looks stuck onto the blade with some sort of pitch or tar. Could the blade have started out life as a spearhead ? Perhaps a made for selling object ? But I'm not an expert, so might be mistaken. Regards Colin

15th October 2016, 09:07 PM	#5
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Hi Detlef, Nice little collection. I love Congolese weapons and although I do not know that much about them, to me, they are the embodiment of ethnographic weapons If I had my time over again that is what I would study and collect. Having said that I have searched for a knife like the first one you posted and have to agree with Colin but the other three look like the real thing to me and could be Saka, Mangbetu and Zande although more knowledgeable members might think differently. Thank you for shaing I love them. Regards Miguel

16th October 2016, 04:23 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AFRICAN WEAPONS HAVE MORE VARIATIONS THAN JUST ABOUT ANYWHERE. THERE ARE THE CLASSIC FORMS SUCH AS THE OTHER EXAMPLES IN YOUR PICTURE. THERE ARE GOOD OLD EXAMPLES OF THESE CLASSIC FORMS AND MORE RECENT ONES AS THEY ARE STILL MADE. THE QUALITY VARIES ON OLD AND MORE RECENT EXAMPLES AS WELL. THEN THERE ARE ITEMS LIKE THE DAGGER YOU ARE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION ON. SOME OF THESE ARE NATIVE MADE FOR LOCAL USE, SOME ARE PUT TOGETHER WITH FRESHLY MADE WOOD HANDLES FOR SALE. YOUR EXAMPLE LOOKS LIKE THE NATIVE MADE VARIETY TO ME AND LIKELY CEREMONIAL. THE REASON I GUESS THIS IS THE HANDLE APPEARS TO HAVE GOOD OLD PATINA AND THE SPEAR BLADE LOOKS OLDER AS WELL. THE HANDLE IS SIMILAR IN SHAPE AND FORM TO THE LARGE KNIFE AT THE TOP OF YOUR PICTURE OF THE GROUP OF KNIVES. TO ME THAT INDICATES IT WAS CARVED IN THE SHAPE OF THAT KNIFE FORMS HANDLE WITH A VARIATION HUMAN HEAD SO MAY BE FROM THAT TRIBE. SOMEONE NEEDED A KNIFE AND HAD A SPARE SPEAR POINT AND CARVED A HANDLE AND LIKELY MADE A SCABBARD FOR IT. RESEARCH SHOULD HELP YOU PIN IT DOWN AS THE CARVING IS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE TRIBE WHO MADE IT, SO HAIR DO AND FORM MAY HELP. I WOULD NOT BE TOO QUICK TO WRITE IT OFF AS JUST ANOTHER TOURIST SOUVENIR. THESE ARE JUST MY OBSERVATIONS SO FURTHER RESEARCH AND INSPECTION IN HAND WILL HELP YOU MAKE A BETTER DETERMINATION

16th October 2016, 08:22 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I think what makes Colin question this piece is, to my eye what you have is a spear point mounted as a knife. This is often found .

16th October 2016, 10:27 AM	#9
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Hello Barry And Tim, thank you both for comment and your good thoughts about this dagger. In the meanwhile and closer inspection of this piece, special the patina at the handle and the sort of pitch which is used for attaching the handle to the possible spear point I am nearly convinced that you are correct, this "dagger" seems native compiled. Best regards, Detlef

22nd October 2016, 05:17 AM	#10
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	As I have been informed that one or more of these items might be offered for sale I am closing this thread until further notice. Best, Robert