" Death Shroud" Pamor ??

Rick · 22nd March 2006, 07:12 PM

Is anyone familiar with this pamor ?
I'm away from my books .
Does anyone have a picture ?

This sounds like a very unfavorable pamor .

nechesh · 22nd March 2006, 07:31 PM

Hi Rick. The pamor that is often referred to as the "death shroud" pamor is most often called Buntel Mayit, which literally means "corpse wrapping" i believe. Alan Maisey, on his web site, however, states that he was told by Empu Suparman Supawijaya that this is an error and that the true name for this pamor is really Buntel Mayat which means "slant wrapping". If you look at this pamor that does make some sense as it describes it exactly. AFAIK this pamor is one that according to tradition is best held by men of war and that it is detrimental in the hands of others. I have heard some people claim this pamor is destructive to ALL who own it, but frankly that makes little sense to me.

Rick · 22nd March 2006, 07:44 PM

Thanks for the written description Nechesh , I'm going to check out a tombak that supposedly has this pamor tomorrow . I've got a feeling from talking to the dealer that this is an old piece .

There's some fascinating old edged stuff here in S.FLA .
Maybe I'll bring something interesting home .

nechesh · 22nd March 2006, 08:06 PM

S. FLA!!!

You getting soft my friend, fleeing the great white north for cushy warm beaches and mimosas in the sunshine instead of struggling with a snow shovel thru the cold New England winter?!

Well, it's springtime now. It's safe to come home.

Check out this site for more pictures: http://keris.fotopic.net/c839588.html

Rick · 22nd March 2006, 09:23 PM

Thanks for the picture and link my friend .

You should know that I only come here to see my aged Mother and to offer her comfort in her declining years (she's out golfing right now) .

You should also know me well enough by now to realize that I would much rather be skinny dipping in the 37 degree F. Cape Cod waters under a lowering sky that is spitting sleet and snow .

/ BTW , hello to you Naga Sasra and Mick ; Mike , you out there ?

BluErf · 22nd March 2006, 11:38 PM

I think many death shroud pamor blades made today have no steel core. The pamor metal is simply twisted, hammered flat and fused back to itself to create the "wrapped" look. If there is a steel core, it would probably only show through partially along the edges (if not completely covered by pamor) and at the tip.

Andrew · 22nd March 2006, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Thanks for the picture and link my friend .

You should know that I only come here to see my aged Mother and to offer her comfort in her declining years (she's out golfing right now) .

You should also know me well enough by now to realize that I would much rather be skinny dipping in the 37 degree F. Cape Cod waters under a lowering sky that is spitting sleet and snow .

/ BTW , hello to you Naga Sasra and Mick ; Mike , you out there ?

What, no shout-out to me?

I'll call you later: I'm swamped until tomorrow afternoon.

nechesh · 23rd March 2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

What, no shout-out to me?

I'll call you later: I'm swamped until tomorrow afternoon.

Hey Andrew, where do you "swamp" in Florida, the Everglades?

Rick · 23rd March 2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I think many death shroud pamor blades made today have no steel core. The pamor metal is simply twisted, hammered flat and fused back to itself to create the "wrapped" look. If there is a steel core, it would probably only show through partially along the edges (if not completely covered by pamor) and at the tip.

I will check for a steel core ; thanks Kai Wee !

The dealer got this example some years ago from an eclectic mix of rusty keris blades and other such stuff offered for sale ; he stated that the whole blade was very gummy and fragrant (sandalwood oil build up ?) and he could barely see the pattern until he cleaned the goo off . From his description I think it may be an adeg pamor but we shall see tomorrow .

Big antique show in Palm Beach this weekend ...

Andrew , you're the first guy I shouted to !

Looking forward to hooking up w/you Bro .
Lynne may not come down ; I'm afraid she's caught the flu .

Naga Sasra · 23rd March 2006, 04:13 AM

Rick,
I sent you an email!

Andrew · 23rd March 2006, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Hey Andrew, where do you "swamp" in Florida, the Everglades?

lol. In all day depositions, unfortunately.

Andrew · 23rd March 2006, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I will check for a steel core ; thanks Kai Wee !

The dealer got this example some years ago from an eclectic mix of rusty keris blades and other such stuff offered for sale ; he stated that the whole blade was very gummy and fragrant (sandalwood oil build up ?) and he could barely see the pattern until he cleaned the goo off . From his description I think it may be an adeg pamor but we shall see tomorrow .

Big antique show in Palm Beach this weekend ...

Andrew , you're the first guy I shouted to !

Looking forward to hooking up w/you Bro .
Lynne may not come down ; I'm afraid she's caught the flu .

Maybe we can hook up Saturday for that show!

Rick · 23rd March 2006, 02:02 PM

That sounds like a decent possibility Andrew ; I'll know today whether Lynne will be coming down .

[edit]

Lynne will be coming today but she'll probably take a pass on the show .

Rick · 26th March 2006, 12:16 AM

Today I met up with Naga Sasra , Mick and Andrew .
Needless to say I am suffering from keris overload and must process all I have seen for a few days .

Kai Wee , the consensus was that the tombak blade is not new and is in fact laid over a core . Exciting news for me !

The gentlemen I met with today are of the finest order and I am very grateful for a chance to absorb some of their extensive cumulative knowledge in the field of keris .

/oh yeah , they're great guys too !!

BluErf · 26th March 2006, 03:13 AM

Ooh!! Now, that calls for pictures when the item is safely in your hands, Rick!

Andrew · 26th March 2006, 04:21 AM

What a great day! Many, many thanks to Naga Sasra and his lovely wife for their generous hospitality. It was great seeing Rick and Mick again, and I feel truly privileged to have had the opportunity to see and handle so many wonderful keris and tombak today.

You guys are incredibly generous with your experience and knowlege. Thank you for sharing and entertaining my endless queries of "so...what am I looking at here?"

nechesh · 26th March 2006, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

What a great day! Many, many thanks to Naga Sasra and his lovely wife for their generous hospitality. It was great seeing Rick and Mick again, and I feel truly privileged to have had the opportunity to see and handle so many wonderful keris and tombak today.

You guys are incredibly generous with your experience and knowlege. Thank you for sharing and entertaining my endless queries of "so...what am I looking at here?"

Careful Andrew!!! Sounds like you might be developing a dangerous appreciation for keris. In that company who could blame you.....but your Dhamafia pallies might just wack ya if you don't watch out!

Rick · 26th March 2006, 04:05 PM

I thought our peerless leader showed great resolution in the face of such temptations ......

On the other hand I was unabashedly bowled over .

Rick · 31st March 2006, 10:00 PM

UPS just dropped off the tombak .
Some dimensions 17 3/4" in scabbard , blade is 9 1/2" long slightly leaf shaped and 1 1/8" wide by almost 3/4" thick at the base tapering to a fairly thick point . The tang is almost 5 3/4" long and sturdy .

Comments and observations ?

Andrew · 1st April 2006, 02:40 AM

I have a comment: your photography skills are really getting quite good!

I saw this thing in person and didn't notice the details I see in your pix.

Nice job.

Andrew · 1st April 2006, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I thought our peerless leader showed great resolution in the face of such temptations ......

On the other hand I was unabashedly bowled over .

I was slack-jawed myself.

While I am happily married, I can still appreciate beauty in other women.

Rick · 1st April 2006, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have a comment: your photography skills are really getting quite good!

I saw this thing in person and didn't notice the details I see in your pix.

Nice job.

Thanks Andrew !

I blame it all on my little Fuji F700 .

I'm really interested to know what our resident keris / tombak collectors think about this piece .
It seems kind of special IMO .

That was a nice afternoon with those guys wasn't it .

BluErf · 1st April 2006, 04:35 PM

Oh wait a minute... Maybe this pamor is not buntel mayit. It could be lar gansir or some variations of it. Buntel mayit, as I understand it, is supposed to have the pamor going continuously round and round the axis of the blade, thus resembling the cloth used to wrap the body of the deceased. In this case, the pamor lines are interrupted and confined to the middle of the blade.

But still, it is an awesome and beautiful tombak.

Rick · 1st April 2006, 04:53 PM

Thanks for the input Kai Wee .

As I go through the pamor drawings in Tammen's #2 I see that his example drawing of lar gansir shows it with a center line and not very much diagonal to it .

A variation it could certainly be but the lack of a defining center line puzzles me .

nechesh · 1st April 2006, 06:25 PM

Hi Rick. I think i agree with Kai Wee in so much that i think this may not be Buntel Mayat. I am not sure if it is Lar Gansir, it doesn't look like other examples i've seen either. Still a nice tombak. I like the dress as well.

Rick · 1st April 2006, 08:42 PM

Wouldn't a tombak or a keris made only from pamor material be weaker and more prone to breakage than one made with the pamor laid upon a steel/iron core ?

There is a twist like pattern on this blade as the pamor follows a spiral direction from front to back as it travels to the tip .

BluErf · 2nd April 2006, 12:20 PM

Well, actually, yes. Making a keris or a tombak from pure pamor metal is a manufacturing shortcut (yes, I won't even call these keris-making, but keris manufacturing

) that we see often these days. Those blades made from damascus billets with pamor miring are extremely prone to breakage. Anyway, such blades would serve a mostly 'decorative' and 'aesthetic' function.

Rick · 3rd April 2006, 01:00 AM

Well Fellas , I have it from a very reliable source

that this is a very recent piece from Madura .
Nonetheless the pamor is interesting and the carving is nice plus I got it for low $'s so overall I'm pretty pleased .

BluErf · 3rd April 2006, 03:44 PM

Well, my creed is to always buy quality items, regardless of whether they are recent or not.

Today's make is tomorrow's antique.

And no matter how old an item is, age can't make a mediocre item better.

Rick · 3rd April 2006, 03:48 PM

Well said Kai Wee .

22nd March 2006, 07:12 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	" Death Shroud" Pamor ?? Is anyone familiar with this pamor ? I'm away from my books . Does anyone have a picture ? This sounds like a very unfavorable pamor .

22nd March 2006, 08:06 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	S. FLA!!! You getting soft my friend, fleeing the great white north for cushy warm beaches and mimosas in the sunshine instead of struggling with a snow shovel thru the cold New England winter?! Well, it's springtime now. It's safe to come home. Check out this site for more pictures: http://keris.fotopic.net/c839588.html Attached Images

22nd March 2006, 09:23 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	It's A Sacrifice .......... Thanks for the picture and link my friend . You should know that I only come here to see my aged Mother and to offer her comfort in her declining years (she's out golfing right now) . You should also know me well enough by now to realize that I would much rather be skinny dipping in the 37 degree F. Cape Cod waters under a lowering sky that is spitting sleet and snow . / BTW , hello to you Naga Sasra and Mick ; Mike , you out there ?

23rd March 2006, 02:02 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	That sounds like a decent possibility Andrew ; I'll know today whether Lynne will be coming down . [edit] Lynne will be coming today but she'll probably take a pass on the show . Last edited by Rick; 23rd March 2006 at 02:22 PM.

26th March 2006, 12:16 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	I Have Been To School Today I met up with Naga Sasra , Mick and Andrew . Needless to say I am suffering from keris overload and must process all I have seen for a few days . Kai Wee , the consensus was that the tombak blade is not new and is in fact laid over a core . Exciting news for me ! The gentlemen I met with today are of the finest order and I am very grateful for a chance to absorb some of their extensive cumulative knowledge in the field of keris . /oh yeah , they're great guys too !!

22nd March 2006, 07:31 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Rick. The pamor that is often referred to as the "death shroud" pamor is most often called Buntel Mayit, which literally means "corpse wrapping" i believe. Alan Maisey, on his web site, however, states that he was told by Empu Suparman Supawijaya that this is an error and that the true name for this pamor is really Buntel Mayat which means "slant wrapping". If you look at this pamor that does make some sense as it describes it exactly. AFAIK this pamor is one that according to tradition is best held by men of war and that it is detrimental in the hands of others. I have heard some people claim this pamor is destructive to ALL who own it, but frankly that makes little sense to me.

22nd March 2006, 07:44 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	Thanks for the written description Nechesh , I'm going to check out a tombak that supposedly has this pamor tomorrow . I've got a feeling from talking to the dealer that this is an old piece . There's some fascinating old edged stuff here in S.FLA . Maybe I'll bring something interesting home .

22nd March 2006, 11:38 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I think many death shroud pamor blades made today have no steel core. The pamor metal is simply twisted, hammered flat and fused back to itself to create the "wrapped" look. If there is a steel core, it would probably only show through partially along the edges (if not completely covered by pamor) and at the tip.

23rd March 2006, 04:13 AM	#10
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Rick, I sent you an email!

26th March 2006, 03:13 AM	#15
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ooh!! Now, that calls for pictures when the item is safely in your hands, Rick!

26th March 2006, 04:21 AM	#16
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	What a great day! Many, many thanks to Naga Sasra and his lovely wife for their generous hospitality. It was great seeing Rick and Mick again, and I feel truly privileged to have had the opportunity to see and handle so many wonderful keris and tombak today. You guys are incredibly generous with your experience and knowlege. Thank you for sharing and entertaining my endless queries of "so...what am I looking at here?"

26th March 2006, 04:05 PM	#18
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	I thought our peerless leader showed great resolution in the face of such temptations ...... On the other hand I was unabashedly bowled over .

31st March 2006, 10:00 PM	#19
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	Pictures Added UPS just dropped off the tombak . Some dimensions 17 3/4" in scabbard , blade is 9 1/2" long slightly leaf shaped and 1 1/8" wide by almost 3/4" thick at the base tapering to a fairly thick point . The tang is almost 5 3/4" long and sturdy . Comments and observations ? Attached Images

1st April 2006, 02:40 AM	#20
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I have a comment: your photography skills are really getting quite good! I saw this thing in person and didn't notice the details I see in your pix. Nice job.

1st April 2006, 04:35 PM	#23
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh wait a minute... Maybe this pamor is not buntel mayit. It could be lar gansir or some variations of it. Buntel mayit, as I understand it, is supposed to have the pamor going continuously round and round the axis of the blade, thus resembling the cloth used to wrap the body of the deceased. In this case, the pamor lines are interrupted and confined to the middle of the blade. But still, it is an awesome and beautiful tombak.

1st April 2006, 04:53 PM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	Thanks for the input Kai Wee . As I go through the pamor drawings in Tammen's #2 I see that his example drawing of lar gansir shows it with a center line and not very much diagonal to it . A variation it could certainly be but the lack of a defining center line puzzles me .

1st April 2006, 06:25 PM	#25
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Rick. I think i agree with Kai Wee in so much that i think this may not be Buntel Mayat. I am not sure if it is Lar Gansir, it doesn't look like other examples i've seen either. Still a nice tombak. I like the dress as well.

1st April 2006, 08:42 PM	#26
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	A Question Wouldn't a tombak or a keris made only from pamor material be weaker and more prone to breakage than one made with the pamor laid upon a steel/iron core ? There is a twist like pattern on this blade as the pamor follows a spiral direction from front to back as it travels to the tip .

2nd April 2006, 12:20 PM	#27
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Well, actually, yes. Making a keris or a tombak from pure pamor metal is a manufacturing shortcut (yes, I won't even call these keris-making, but keris manufacturing ) that we see often these days. Those blades made from damascus billets with pamor miring are extremely prone to breakage. Anyway, such blades would serve a mostly 'decorative' and 'aesthetic' function.

3rd April 2006, 01:00 AM	#28
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	Well Fellas , I have it from a very reliable source that this is a very recent piece from Madura . Nonetheless the pamor is interesting and the carving is nice plus I got it for low $'s so overall I'm pretty pleased .

3rd April 2006, 03:44 PM	#29
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Well, my creed is to always buy quality items, regardless of whether they are recent or not. Today's make is tomorrow's antique. And no matter how old an item is, age can't make a mediocre item better.

3rd April 2006, 03:48 PM	#30
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,333	True Well said Kai Wee .