New Plains club

Tim Simmons · 9th November 2015, 05:06 PM

The picture is not that good so will have to wait with fingers crossed until it arrives. Not the length I really want and the club head not as pointed either, but for the the money I could be well pleased, I hope. Saying that the handle is possibly really very nice and unusual. I am adding images of two similar sized (40 cm and 39 cm) pieces from the American Museum of Natural History,

http://anthro.amnh.org/north

The less pointed example is described as ; San Ildefonso, Southwest Plains, acquisition 1910 expedition.

The other Plains gift 1949.

Clearly my new club is the example of poor photography.

VANDOO · 9th November 2015, 06:22 PM

THE WORKMANSHIP IS VERY GOOD AND APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE PROPER WAY. THE BRAIDED RAWHIDE HANDLE IS ESPECIALLY NICE. I HOPE IT IS LONGER THAN IT APPEARS IN THE PHOTO AS THAT WOULD BE ITS ONLY SHORT COMING (PUN INTENDED)

THE STONE LOOKS OK TOO. IT IS RARE BUT STILL POSSIBLE TO FIND A SLEEPER IN NATIVE AMERICAN ITEMS AS MANY COLLECTORS FEAR TO TREAD BUT A VERY WELL NATIVE AMERICAN MADE ITEM IS WORTH COLLECTING AS WELL. GOOD LUCK I HOPE YOU GOT A SLEEPER BUT IT LOOKS LIKE A GOOD WARCLUB OLD OR NEW.

Tim Simmons · 12th November 2015, 05:02 PM

While I wait for arrival. Here are some old pictures that show also with the natural history museum these clubs come in all shapes and sizes plain and decorated.

stekemest · 12th November 2015, 10:02 PM

Nice club...

Here's a picture of my own. Most of these seem to date around 1900. I haven't seen many authentic examples from pre-reservation times.

Tim Simmons · 13th November 2015, 06:07 PM

Thanks for the picture. I have this one and I now realise that the stone is Catlinite rather than brown shale or limestone.

Tim Simmons · 14th November 2015, 06:28 PM

Since found that Catlinite and Brown shale are much the same thing.

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2015, 09:52 AM

Just come across this example, 13 inches long in the Brooklyn Museum, 19th century.

stekemest · 15th November 2015, 11:33 AM

Actually looks more like an axe if you ask me. Hard to see if it has an edge.

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2015, 06:59 PM

I am trying to add a resized picture. It is a hammer which only makes a small difference is used as a weapon. It is has turquoise inlay which is suggested
by the museum to be unusual and often found on objects for sale. The museum also suggest it may be a dance thing. Then states that it conforms to widespread regional forms. So really they are covering all bases. I only show it as it is so similar to my new piece.

Tim Simmons · 26th November 2015, 02:48 PM

Here now. Quite interesting, who can say how old it is? but why should I doubt that it could be a late 19th early 20th century piece like many in the AMNH. It fits the group, however and I am sure it will be for most of us all.

" still not the one I am after"

It may be small but it is a well balanced weapon.

Pukka Bundook · 26th November 2015, 03:50 PM

Tim,

The short handled types were still popular, even if not exactly what we expect to see.

Yellow Wolf, (Nez Perce warrior) had a "copluts' with a handle only about 10 inches long. He was shown in a dream how to make it and what size it should be. He even brained a grizzly -bear with it.
On his, the stone was perfectly round and covered in rawhide.
He was 'intructed' to make the handle short, so it could not be grabbed by an opponent.
Yellow Wolf fought alongside Joseph and Looking Glass in their famous retreat.

Richard.

Tim Simmons · 26th November 2015, 05:46 PM

Thanks for that Richard. I like it all the more

kronckew · 26th November 2015, 07:21 PM

now that it's over (and i didn't win it) there was a recent auction on ebay for a 'Inca Boleadora Macana War Club' 45cm (17.7in.) long that look much like yours. vendor said it was an alpaca leather braided handle. parallel evolution? or was it really a plains club?

stekemest · 26th November 2015, 09:51 PM

The Inca did indeed have boleadoras with heads like that, but they usually don't come with their handles intact. So I guess this is at least partially a reconstruction.

However, it is not always clear whether a stone head was used for boleadoras or for maces. "Macana" is the term for maces, not for boleadoras. But they had wooden handles. You can see a boleadora and a macana (or 'porra') depicted by Guaman Poma (see below). Maces come with a huge variety of different shapes.

kronckew · 27th November 2015, 10:56 AM

he did mention that the handle was hard and dessicated when he got it, and that he'd had it 'had it professionally preserved'. wish i'd bid a bit more now. i didn't because he'd threw in the jarring macana bit, which i knew involved a wood haft. ah, well - can't win 'em all.

Pukka Bundook · 27th November 2015, 03:47 PM

Kronckew,

The handle on the one you posted looks a bit too new to me. I know braiding has been around a long time, but this looks identical to the style we see now on hackamores and bullwhips.
Don't feel bad you didn't get it. :-)

Richard.

Tim Simmons · 23rd June 2023, 01:11 PM

Found myself with this club in my hand and lead me to have a further look in the NMAI Data Base for some other items that may reflect styles or similar forms of construction. Mine club is a metal "steel/iron" bar with a hide weave.

One example using steel/iron; Dakota? number 1/1163 acquired 1906. Collection history unknown. Formerly collection of Abel E Brook {1833-1917} renowned Civil War Fire Arms collector.

The example with the hide weave rather like my example . Chiricachua Apache , number 2/1868 acquired 1909 MAI staff during field work.

Makes me very happy with my example.

9th November 2015, 05:06 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	New Plains club The picture is not that good so will have to wait with fingers crossed until it arrives. Not the length I really want and the club head not as pointed either, but for the the money I could be well pleased, I hope. Saying that the handle is possibly really very nice and unusual. I am adding images of two similar sized (40 cm and 39 cm) pieces from the American Museum of Natural History, http://anthro.amnh.org/north The less pointed example is described as ; San Ildefonso, Southwest Plains, acquisition 1910 expedition. The other Plains gift 1949. Clearly my new club is the example of poor photography. Attached Images

12th November 2015, 05:02 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	While I wait for arrival. Here are some old pictures that show also with the natural history museum these clubs come in all shapes and sizes plain and decorated. Attached Images

12th November 2015, 10:02 PM	#4
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Nice club... Here's a picture of my own. Most of these seem to date around 1900. I haven't seen many authentic examples from pre-reservation times. Attached Images

13th November 2015, 06:07 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks for the picture. I have this one and I now realise that the stone is Catlinite rather than brown shale or limestone. Attached Images

15th November 2015, 09:52 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Just come across this example, 13 inches long in the Brooklyn Museum, 19th century. Attached Images

9th November 2015, 06:22 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE WORKMANSHIP IS VERY GOOD AND APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE PROPER WAY. THE BRAIDED RAWHIDE HANDLE IS ESPECIALLY NICE. I HOPE IT IS LONGER THAN IT APPEARS IN THE PHOTO AS THAT WOULD BE ITS ONLY SHORT COMING (PUN INTENDED) THE STONE LOOKS OK TOO. IT IS RARE BUT STILL POSSIBLE TO FIND A SLEEPER IN NATIVE AMERICAN ITEMS AS MANY COLLECTORS FEAR TO TREAD BUT A VERY WELL NATIVE AMERICAN MADE ITEM IS WORTH COLLECTING AS WELL. GOOD LUCK I HOPE YOU GOT A SLEEPER BUT IT LOOKS LIKE A GOOD WARCLUB OLD OR NEW.

14th November 2015, 06:28 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Since found that Catlinite and Brown shale are much the same thing.

15th November 2015, 11:33 AM	#8
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	Actually looks more like an axe if you ask me. Hard to see if it has an edge.

15th November 2015, 06:59 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I am trying to add a resized picture. It is a hammer which only makes a small difference is used as a weapon. It is has turquoise inlay which is suggested by the museum to be unusual and often found on objects for sale. The museum also suggest it may be a dance thing. Then states that it conforms to widespread regional forms. So really they are covering all bases. I only show it as it is so similar to my new piece. Attached Images

26th November 2015, 02:48 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Here now. Quite interesting, who can say how old it is? but why should I doubt that it could be a late 19th early 20th century piece like many in the AMNH. It fits the group, however and I am sure it will be for most of us all. " still not the one I am after" It may be small but it is a well balanced weapon. Attached Images

26th November 2015, 03:50 PM	#11
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Tim, The short handled types were still popular, even if not exactly what we expect to see. Yellow Wolf, (Nez Perce warrior) had a "copluts' with a handle only about 10 inches long. He was shown in a dream how to make it and what size it should be. He even brained a grizzly -bear with it. On his, the stone was perfectly round and covered in rawhide. He was 'intructed' to make the handle short, so it could not be grabbed by an opponent. Yellow Wolf fought alongside Joseph and Looking Glass in their famous retreat. Richard.

26th November 2015, 05:46 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Thanks for that Richard. I like it all the more

26th November 2015, 07:21 PM	#13
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	now that it's over (and i didn't win it) there was a recent auction on ebay for a 'Inca Boleadora Macana War Club' 45cm (17.7in.) long that look much like yours. vendor said it was an alpaca leather braided handle. parallel evolution? or was it really a plains club? Attached Images

26th November 2015, 09:51 PM	#14
stekemest Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 182	The Inca did indeed have boleadoras with heads like that, but they usually don't come with their handles intact. So I guess this is at least partially a reconstruction. However, it is not always clear whether a stone head was used for boleadoras or for maces. "Macana" is the term for maces, not for boleadoras. But they had wooden handles. You can see a boleadora and a macana (or 'porra') depicted by Guaman Poma (see below). Maces come with a huge variety of different shapes. Attached Images

27th November 2015, 10:56 AM	#15
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	he did mention that the handle was hard and dessicated when he got it, and that he'd had it 'had it professionally preserved'. wish i'd bid a bit more now. i didn't because he'd threw in the jarring macana bit, which i knew involved a wood haft. ah, well - can't win 'em all.

27th November 2015, 03:47 PM	#16
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Kronckew, The handle on the one you posted looks a bit too new to me. I know braiding has been around a long time, but this looks identical to the style we see now on hackamores and bullwhips. Don't feel bad you didn't get it. :-) Richard.

23rd June 2023, 01:11 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Found myself with this club in my hand and lead me to have a further look in the NMAI Data Base for some other items that may reflect styles or similar forms of construction. Mine club is a metal "steel/iron" bar with a hide weave. One example using steel/iron; Dakota? number 1/1163 acquired 1906. Collection history unknown. Formerly collection of Abel E Brook {1833-1917} renowned Civil War Fire Arms collector. The example with the hide weave rather like my example . Chiricachua Apache , number 2/1868 acquired 1909 MAI staff during field work. Makes me very happy with my example. Attached Images