17th century Italian mortar?

Guillaume · 30th April 2013, 06:43 AM

I cast this piece with 16th century technology as outlined in Pyrotechnia (using a "casting powder" bound with sodium silicate) from an example I found online which said it was a "17th CENTURY ITALIAN HAND/SALUTING MORTAR, ca. 1640". From what I have gathered here, it is the consensus in these parts that the absense of a lip to hold powder while upright probably means that this was held in a stock, and therefore not necessarily a signal mortar.

What do you think about the ascribed date/place/function? I will say it's very difficult to light standing up with out a fuse

.

(I didnt post a link to the orginal because its part of an online sale and I belive there's a prohibition against that, so I'm just using mine as a reference for the question)

fernando · 2nd May 2013, 03:09 PM

I would put it that it is more the certainty that the presence of a lip ensures that the thing is a standing up mortar (signal, celebration, powder test, you name it) than its absency meaning it is an horizontal stocked gonne.
When the lip is absent, that gives it the benefit of the doubt and we ( i for one) enjoy thinking it is a cannon, a more war like thing ... and off we go mounting it in a stock, giving it a cannon look.
I beleive matchcord has long been available, no lip needed.
The one you show here has a protuberance in the middle of its body, which doesn't fit well in a stock mount; so probably a mortar ?

Guillaume · 10th May 2013, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

The one you show here has a protuberance in the middle of its body, which doesn't fit well in a stock mount; so probably a mortar ?

I think that is sound logic all around, however for the sake of argument (and I realize that most of these arguments tend to make things try to fit what we want them to be) at least 2 of the mounted mortars from Castelnaud are similarly ringed and half or 1/3 embedded in a stock or base.

I wish there were a good source for a timeline and progression for these things. I havent been able to find one.

For instance, are there similar examples out there of Castelnaud "baton a feu" type? FYI, I emailed them about that piece but I havent heard back.

fernando · 11th May 2013, 07:51 PM

I guess that it should be emphasided that the versatility of these things comprehended a vast menu. Just the other day i hear a local seller calling them 'canhões de porta' (door cannons).
This reminded me that long ago i was told by a certain expert that they were indeed used to blast the enemy when trying to brake in the castle gates during sieges.
I haven't yet seen setups similar to those from Castelnaud, although there are similar approaches out there.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=hand+cannon
Mind you, what i know about these things is residual, comparing to some real connoisseurs ... one of them unfortunately unavailable for the time being:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16416
I would put it that the duality between mortar and cannon is a bit like the hen and the egg, but having to attribute them a time line, which i fear there is no evidentional one, we may assume that the cannon started earlier and the mortar ended later; not being surprised that they were used for religious celebrations up to the XIX century.
But then, and for the fun of it, we must remember that the first projectile cannons that existed, were hardly no more than noise makers and often more lethal for the gunner than for the target.
Although there may be no record of the hand cannon first appearance, there are specialists who pretend that, once heavy field cannons appeared (XIV century), it is 'logic' that portable ones had immediately followed them.
A few more and less serious links you may not yet know

.
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm
http://www.handgonne.com/
http://albrechts.se/
Have you spotted this thread in here ?.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=hand+cannon

.

30th April 2013, 06:43 AM	#1
Guillaume Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 10	17th century Italian mortar? I cast this piece with 16th century technology as outlined in Pyrotechnia (using a "casting powder" bound with sodium silicate) from an example I found online which said it was a "17th CENTURY ITALIAN HAND/SALUTING MORTAR, ca. 1640". From what I have gathered here, it is the consensus in these parts that the absense of a lip to hold powder while upright probably means that this was held in a stock, and therefore not necessarily a signal mortar. What do you think about the ascribed date/place/function? I will say it's very difficult to light standing up with out a fuse . (I didnt post a link to the orginal because its part of an online sale and I belive there's a prohibition against that, so I'm just using mine as a reference for the question) Last edited by Guillaume; 30th April 2013 at 04:36 PM.

2nd May 2013, 03:09 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I would put it that it is more the certainty that the presence of a lip ensures that the thing is a standing up mortar (signal, celebration, powder test, you name it) than its absency meaning it is an horizontal stocked gonne. When the lip is absent, that gives it the benefit of the doubt and we ( i for one) enjoy thinking it is a cannon, a more war like thing ... and off we go mounting it in a stock, giving it a cannon look. I beleive matchcord has long been available, no lip needed. The one you show here has a protuberance in the middle of its body, which doesn't fit well in a stock mount; so probably a mortar ? Last edited by fernando; 2nd May 2013 at 03:21 PM.

11th May 2013, 07:51 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I guess that it should be emphasided that the versatility of these things comprehended a vast menu. Just the other day i hear a local seller calling them 'canhões de porta' (door cannons). This reminded me that long ago i was told by a certain expert that they were indeed used to blast the enemy when trying to brake in the castle gates during sieges. I haven't yet seen setups similar to those from Castelnaud, although there are similar approaches out there. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=hand+cannon Mind you, what i know about these things is residual, comparing to some real connoisseurs ... one of them unfortunately unavailable for the time being: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16416 I would put it that the duality between mortar and cannon is a bit like the hen and the egg, but having to attribute them a time line, which i fear there is no evidentional one, we may assume that the cannon started earlier and the mortar ended later; not being surprised that they were used for religious celebrations up to the XIX century. But then, and for the fun of it, we must remember that the first projectile cannons that existed, were hardly no more than noise makers and often more lethal for the gunner than for the target. Although there may be no record of the hand cannon first appearance, there are specialists who pretend that, once heavy field cannons appeared (XIV century), it is 'logic' that portable ones had immediately followed them. A few more and less serious links you may not yet know . http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~dispater/handgonnes.htm http://www.handgonne.com/ http://albrechts.se/ Have you spotted this thread in here ?. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=hand+cannon . Attached Images