KATAR FOR COMENTS

fernando · 31st December 2005, 05:39 PM

Hi gentlemen
These are pictures of a katar that i bought, labelled as being from "Portuguese India, 18th century". I am not sure that this is a valid reference, specially the pretended portuguese influence aproach.
It has a 10" blade, and measures over 17" in total.
Comparing to some intrincate katars that can be seen around, this is quite a plain specimen.
I wonder if the members involved in this area would favour me with some coments on this piece's provenance and probable age.
Thanks a lot.

Battara · 31st December 2005, 08:54 PM

One thing is for sure, especially based on Elgood's book, this is a piece from southern India. The pierced sides and curve at the base give it away for me. Didn't the Portuguese land in south India? Not sure their influence is necessary.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st January 2006, 02:33 PM

Hi Fernando,
Portugal had quite a lot of colonies in the area, in India they had one at Goa on the west coast. I doubt very much that Portugal, or any other country for that matter, had any influence on the katar, other than European blades were sometimes used in especially south Indian katars, farangis and patas.

fernando · 1st January 2006, 08:02 PM

Thank you Battara and Jens.
You made me understand that this or other katar hilts haven't suffered foreigner influence in their native form and decoration and that, in some cases, european blades could be used.
In fact the portuguese landed in southest India around 1500 and kept a few possessions there for a few centuries ... they were last driven out of Goa in 1961. This explains the term "portuguese India", and must be the area where this katar comes from, as the seller specializes in weapons from that region.
As you are noticing this is a southern model, would you say the blade is indeed an european attachement, and that it could be aged 18th century ?

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd January 2006, 01:57 PM

It is difficult to say if the blade is from an European sword, as the Indians copied European sword blades, but it could be European. Also the blade seems to be as old as the hilt.

The first written report about a katar, was written by Ibn Batutta around 1330, as one of his travelling companions was killed with a katar on the west coast of India.

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2006, 06:28 PM

Hi Fernando,
This katar is outstanding, mostly because of its untouched integrity. I agree completely with Jens and Battaras comments, and I think the assessment of Portuguese India, 18th century is probably entirely correct. Actually the reference to Portuguese has nothing to do with 'influence' but more to do with the blades commonly used which were often imported by the Portuguese. The region was as mentioned included the key trade center of Goa, and the Mahrattas were prevalent in these regions. Mahratta tribes were Hindu and situated initially in western and central India, with thier campaigns carrying their weapons and influence into many other regions in the subcontinent.

It would appear that the sidebars carry the Kundalini motif, which typically represents a flame as metaphysical symbolism which is well established in many cultures, especially, as in this case, Hindu. The complexities of this symbolism are best explained by those with far more understanding of these matters than I, but the motif is often seen on katars.

Excellent example Fernando!!
All the best,
Jim

fernando · 7th January 2006, 11:36 AM

I humbly apologize for the delay in thanking your information.
Jens, your coments were precious.
Thank you Jim, for all the tracks. I have been digging into my micro library, and i spotted quite a few katars and patas, giving a projection of the blades used in these weapons, namely the mahratas. Statisticaly european blades were preferred to local ones, with great incidence in patas. As i read that one of the Mahratas occupations was pushing out the europeans out of the territory, it is admissibile that european soldiers could be hit by mahrata warriors, using european blades. Ironicaly a portuguese could get killed by a pata with a blade inscribed " Long live Dom João V King of Portugal". Such would be the case of a beautyfull 18th century pata shown in a book, which i would swear i once sent you a copy, by the time we swapped data on cup hilt swords.
Thank you again and keep well, with all your beloved ones, into the new year.
Kind regards
fernando

31st December 2005, 05:39 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	KATAR FOR COMENTS Hi gentlemen These are pictures of a katar that i bought, labelled as being from "Portuguese India, 18th century". I am not sure that this is a valid reference, specially the pretended portuguese influence aproach. It has a 10" blade, and measures over 17" in total. Comparing to some intrincate katars that can be seen around, this is quite a plain specimen. I wonder if the members involved in this area would favour me with some coments on this piece's provenance and probable age. Thanks a lot. Attached Images

31st December 2005, 08:54 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,200	One thing is for sure, especially based on Elgood's book, this is a piece from southern India. The pierced sides and curve at the base give it away for me. Didn't the Portuguese land in south India? Not sure their influence is necessary.

1st January 2006, 02:33 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, Portugal had quite a lot of colonies in the area, in India they had one at Goa on the west coast. I doubt very much that Portugal, or any other country for that matter, had any influence on the katar, other than European blades were sometimes used in especially south Indian katars, farangis and patas.

1st January 2006, 08:02 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Battara and Jens. You made me understand that this or other katar hilts haven't suffered foreigner influence in their native form and decoration and that, in some cases, european blades could be used. In fact the portuguese landed in southest India around 1500 and kept a few possessions there for a few centuries ... they were last driven out of Goa in 1961. This explains the term "portuguese India", and must be the area where this katar comes from, as the seller specializes in weapons from that region. As you are noticing this is a southern model, would you say the blade is indeed an european attachement, and that it could be aged 18th century ?

2nd January 2006, 01:57 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It is difficult to say if the blade is from an European sword, as the Indians copied European sword blades, but it could be European. Also the blade seems to be as old as the hilt. The first written report about a katar, was written by Ibn Batutta around 1330, as one of his travelling companions was killed with a katar on the west coast of India.

2nd January 2006, 06:28 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,893	Hi Fernando, This katar is outstanding, mostly because of its untouched integrity. I agree completely with Jens and Battaras comments, and I think the assessment of Portuguese India, 18th century is probably entirely correct. Actually the reference to Portuguese has nothing to do with 'influence' but more to do with the blades commonly used which were often imported by the Portuguese. The region was as mentioned included the key trade center of Goa, and the Mahrattas were prevalent in these regions. Mahratta tribes were Hindu and situated initially in western and central India, with thier campaigns carrying their weapons and influence into many other regions in the subcontinent. It would appear that the sidebars carry the Kundalini motif, which typically represents a flame as metaphysical symbolism which is well established in many cultures, especially, as in this case, Hindu. The complexities of this symbolism are best explained by those with far more understanding of these matters than I, but the motif is often seen on katars. Excellent example Fernando!! All the best, Jim

7th January 2006, 11:36 AM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I humbly apologize for the delay in thanking your information. Jens, your coments were precious. Thank you Jim, for all the tracks. I have been digging into my micro library, and i spotted quite a few katars and patas, giving a projection of the blades used in these weapons, namely the mahratas. Statisticaly european blades were preferred to local ones, with great incidence in patas. As i read that one of the Mahratas occupations was pushing out the europeans out of the territory, it is admissibile that european soldiers could be hit by mahrata warriors, using european blades. Ironicaly a portuguese could get killed by a pata with a blade inscribed " Long live Dom João V King of Portugal". Such would be the case of a beautyfull 18th century pata shown in a book, which i would swear i once sent you a copy, by the time we swapped data on cup hilt swords. Thank you again and keep well, with all your beloved ones, into the new year. Kind regards fernando