Luzon sword for comment

Sajen · 10th February 2013, 10:23 PM

This sword recently finished by ebay and I think it is worth for comment and keeping the pictures for later reference. I am not the winner, the seller don't want to ship outside the States. http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-FILIPINO...vip=true&rt=nc

Sajen · 12th February 2013, 07:15 PM

No one?

Robert · 12th February 2013, 07:52 PM

Hello Detlef, I thought that I would wait to see what the experts had to say before commenting but looks like they are being silent on this one. I am not so sure that this is from the Philippines but maybe from Mexico. The waves on the blade seem to pointed and the bird hilt is also different from anything I have seen (so far) from Luzon.

I have however seen this style of blade work as on late Philippine swords and on some daggers and swords that were made in Mexico. I have also seen this style of hilt on Mexican pieces before. Maybe Jose will comment on the designs on the throat of the scabbard for help in identifying where this was made. Sorry for not being of much help on this very interesting and unusual sword.

Best,
Robert

Battara · 12th February 2013, 08:58 PM

Since my name was mentioned..........

I am not sure what to say about this. I have heard about Luzono swords with thin wavy blades, but never seen one before. The horn is typical for Luzon as well as the tang going through the hilt. Not seen a wavy blade on any Mexican piece before.

However, the floral work is a little different. This may very well be Northern Philippines. but I can't tell you much more than that.

Robert · 12th February 2013, 09:11 PM

Hello Jose, Glad you saw your name.

I have more than a few Luzon pieces with wavy blades and have seen quite a few pieces with wavy blades that were clearly marked as being made in Mexico. Horn hilts and tangs that extend through the hilt are also the norm for most Mexican pieces as well as ones from the Philippines. The bird hilt and pointed waves is what makes me wonder if this is truly a Philippine item or not. Do you have any reference to this style of hilt on a Philippine item?

Best,
Robert

Battara · 12th February 2013, 09:14 PM

Robert - thank you for that information on Mexican bladed weapons.

I have not seen bird carvings like this on Philippine pieces, although I have seen them on Indonesian pieces. This may be Mexican if what you say is true and would explain the style of cross guard and floral patterns on both cross guard and scabbard.

On the other hand, there were centuries of trade between the Philippines and Mexican territories.

carlos · 12th February 2013, 10:48 PM

hello
I followed the auction but finally I didn,t bid. The style of the guard and sheath are similars of this dagger I bought 2 years ago.
Best regards
carlos
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10062

Lew · 13th February 2013, 10:36 AM

As far as a Mexican connection in the Philippine goes

. Notice the guard style it the same as the other two daggers.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lippine+dagger

Robert · 13th February 2013, 07:19 PM

Hello Lew,
I am not saying that this is not from the Philippines, I was just pointing out a few things about it that make me wonder about it. This could very well be Philippine but just with more Mexican influence than I am used to seeing. What makes me think that this could be a later piece (1940 or later) can be seen in the second picture down from the top that shows how pointed the waves are, which is something that I have seen on quite a few later Philippine pieces. A very interesting piece where ever it is from.

Best,
Robert

VVV · 13th February 2013, 08:13 PM

This is not my area but I think it is Luzon, even if the hilt is unusual.
Here is a kris with a resembling guard that clearly is not Mexican.

Michael

Robert · 13th February 2013, 08:38 PM

Hello Michael,
I cannot say for sure without seeing the end of the hilt on your friends sword but I do not think that it is a Luzon piece but more from the Visayans. As for the guard, the people of the Philippines were very resourceful and would re-use all sorts of items. I even have a dagger that has Chinese thimbles being used as ferrules.

Best,
Robert

VVV · 13th February 2013, 08:43 PM

Hello Robert,

Sorry for being unclear - it was the kris from eBay that I thought was from Luzon.
According to the seller (of the eBay kris) the sheath is too small for the blade so maybe it doesn't belong to it?

Michael

Sajen · 13th February 2013, 10:11 PM

Thank you all for this (now) very interesting discussion! I don't know much about Mexican swords but never have seen a waved sword from there.

Is someone able to show examples?

Robert · 13th February 2013, 10:50 PM

Michael, Sorry for misunderstanding what you were saying.

As for the scabbard, if it was made from un-aged wood it could have shrunk so much that the blade no longer fits. It does however look like it is original to the sword. Like I said, this could very well be from Luzon it is just that I have never seen this grip (bird carving) on a Philippine item before but I have seen this style on items from Mexico as well as wavy blades. I am quite sure that there are numerous styles of Luzon swords, knives and daggers that I haven't seen yet and this could very well be one of them.

Detlef, There have been quite a few wavy bladed daggers listed on epray over the years that were clearly marked as being made in Mexico with horn hilts. I, like you have never seen a wavy bladed sword from Mexico yet but like Philippine items I am positive that I have never seen all the styles that have been made there over the years. Like I said earlier, this could very well be Philippine but just with more Mexican influence than I am used to seeing.

Best,
Robert

Spunjer · 15th February 2013, 12:11 PM

.

Battara · 15th February 2013, 11:50 PM

This is now relisted on ebay.

Ferguson · 16th February 2013, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

This is now relisted on ebay.

With a different guard. Should this thread be locked due to the current ebay posting?

Steve

Battara · 16th February 2013, 06:51 PM

Oh you're right - I missed that part.

Interesting that it is nearly identical..........

10th February 2013, 10:23 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,125	Luzon sword for comment This sword recently finished by ebay and I think it is worth for comment and keeping the pictures for later reference. I am not the winner, the seller don't want to ship outside the States. http://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-FILIPINO...vip=true&rt=nc Attached Images

12th February 2013, 10:48 PM	#7
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 746	hello I followed the auction but finally I didn,t bid. The style of the guard and sheath are similars of this dagger I bought 2 years ago. Best regards carlos http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10062 Attached Images

13th February 2013, 08:13 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	This is not my area but I think it is Luzon, even if the hilt is unusual. Here is a kris with a resembling guard that clearly is not Mexican. Michael Attached Images

15th February 2013, 12:11 PM	#15
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	. Last edited by Spunjer; 16th February 2013 at 11:33 AM.

12th February 2013, 07:15 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,125	No one?

12th February 2013, 07:52 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, I thought that I would wait to see what the experts had to say before commenting but looks like they are being silent on this one. I am not so sure that this is from the Philippines but maybe from Mexico. The waves on the blade seem to pointed and the bird hilt is also different from anything I have seen (so far) from Luzon. I have however seen this style of blade work as on late Philippine swords and on some daggers and swords that were made in Mexico. I have also seen this style of hilt on Mexican pieces before. Maybe Jose will comment on the designs on the throat of the scabbard for help in identifying where this was made. Sorry for not being of much help on this very interesting and unusual sword. Best, Robert

12th February 2013, 08:58 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	Since my name was mentioned.......... I am not sure what to say about this. I have heard about Luzono swords with thin wavy blades, but never seen one before. The horn is typical for Luzon as well as the tang going through the hilt. Not seen a wavy blade on any Mexican piece before. However, the floral work is a little different. This may very well be Northern Philippines. but I can't tell you much more than that.

12th February 2013, 09:11 PM	#5
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Jose, Glad you saw your name. I have more than a few Luzon pieces with wavy blades and have seen quite a few pieces with wavy blades that were clearly marked as being made in Mexico. Horn hilts and tangs that extend through the hilt are also the norm for most Mexican pieces as well as ones from the Philippines. The bird hilt and pointed waves is what makes me wonder if this is truly a Philippine item or not. Do you have any reference to this style of hilt on a Philippine item? Best, Robert

12th February 2013, 09:14 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	Robert - thank you for that information on Mexican bladed weapons. I have not seen bird carvings like this on Philippine pieces, although I have seen them on Indonesian pieces. This may be Mexican if what you say is true and would explain the style of cross guard and floral patterns on both cross guard and scabbard. On the other hand, there were centuries of trade between the Philippines and Mexican territories.

13th February 2013, 10:36 AM	#8
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	As far as a Mexican connection in the Philippine goes . Notice the guard style it the same as the other two daggers. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...lippine+dagger

13th February 2013, 07:19 PM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Lew, I am not saying that this is not from the Philippines, I was just pointing out a few things about it that make me wonder about it. This could very well be Philippine but just with more Mexican influence than I am used to seeing. What makes me think that this could be a later piece (1940 or later) can be seen in the second picture down from the top that shows how pointed the waves are, which is something that I have seen on quite a few later Philippine pieces. A very interesting piece where ever it is from. Best, Robert

13th February 2013, 08:38 PM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Michael, I cannot say for sure without seeing the end of the hilt on your friends sword but I do not think that it is a Luzon piece but more from the Visayans. As for the guard, the people of the Philippines were very resourceful and would re-use all sorts of items. I even have a dagger that has Chinese thimbles being used as ferrules. Best, Robert

13th February 2013, 08:43 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hello Robert, Sorry for being unclear - it was the kris from eBay that I thought was from Luzon. According to the seller (of the eBay kris) the sheath is too small for the blade so maybe it doesn't belong to it? Michael

13th February 2013, 10:11 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,125	Thank you all for this (now) very interesting discussion! I don't know much about Mexican swords but never have seen a waved sword from there. Is someone able to show examples?

13th February 2013, 10:50 PM	#14
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Michael, Sorry for misunderstanding what you were saying. As for the scabbard, if it was made from un-aged wood it could have shrunk so much that the blade no longer fits. It does however look like it is original to the sword. Like I said, this could very well be from Luzon it is just that I have never seen this grip (bird carving) on a Philippine item before but I have seen this style on items from Mexico as well as wavy blades. I am quite sure that there are numerous styles of Luzon swords, knives and daggers that I haven't seen yet and this could very well be one of them. Detlef, There have been quite a few wavy bladed daggers listed on epray over the years that were clearly marked as being made in Mexico with horn hilts. I, like you have never seen a wavy bladed sword from Mexico yet but like Philippine items I am positive that I have never seen all the styles that have been made there over the years. Like I said earlier, this could very well be Philippine but just with more Mexican influence than I am used to seeing. Best, Robert

15th February 2013, 11:50 PM	#16
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	This is now relisted on ebay.

16th February 2013, 06:51 PM	#18
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,257	Oh you're right - I missed that part. Interesting that it is nearly identical..........