Ineresting Dirk

Tim Simmons · 7th May 2012, 12:46 PM

I got this magpie fashion. Not my sort of thing but I fell for the clean lines. At first glance it appears to be a converted bayonet. However I am not so sure. The scabbard has been made for the blade and seems to my eye to be different to the Martini bayonet scabbard I do not know? It is certainly not shed work, made by a professional hand? The handle is turned black wood a kind of ebony. The blade is 27cm long. It is not unheard of to see bayonet type knife blades. You can only stab with it. Dagger nuts oppinions?

graeme gt · 7th May 2012, 03:18 PM

It"s got the trench knife look about it .

Tim Simmons · 7th May 2012, 06:01 PM

You may well be right. I forgot to mention. If you look very close at the handle, you can see that the handle is secured by two screws one either side. One further up the handle from the other. I have been checking bayonets, and the fullers run from tip to forte. The fullers on this dagger end a good inch before the forte. I think you are correct about ww1 private purchase, officer sort of thing. Many daggers knives and dirks were made for ww1. Though how many were actually used is another question. Sadley I will be unable too show but through x10 loop the screws look hand made. Thank you.

Tim Simmons · 8th May 2012, 06:57 PM

Or quite possibly and not at all unreasonable a mid 19th century naval dirk. I have been researching what bayonet this could have been made from if that is the case, and I have been unable to find one with the correct sizing profile and fullering. The bold use of brass is also a very naval thing. ???? Interesting link.

http://asoac.org/bulletins/86_tuuite_naval.pdf

M ELEY · 9th May 2012, 06:04 AM

There is a chance it could be naval, but I don't think so. Most of the naval dirks were made for midshipmen and officers, therefore, better quality. That's not to say this could have been made out of necessity during desparate times. I'm thinking it dates post-1850 (based on the simple cross guard piece that was cut in this pattern), so it conceivably could be a Confed dirk, side-knife. It could also be a so-called gambler's boot knife (I've seen some of this quality). If naval (and I say a big IF), it's post Age of Sail when dirks were falling out of favor. Sailors still carried knives, but they were typically blunt/no point for cutting rope or of the clasp knife type during this period. Could still be a trench knife, of course. In any case, a very interesting piece that raises questions...

Tim Simmons · 9th May 2012, 09:33 PM

Thank you. Here is the rub "quality" is fancy quality? I make all sorts of metal fittings for a great deal of objects and I have "issues" about design, taste, and concepts of "quality" perhaps I have been in the trade too long and have become a little jaded.

M ELEY · 10th May 2012, 12:29 PM

I see your point and please let me clarify. You are correct, as I meant to say
"fancy". Although 'fighting dirks' of course existed, many of those carried were dress (fancy, frilly affairs not meant for the boarding party). Likewise, even the simpler types usually had some decoration, be it ivory hilts, brass wire grip wrapping, defined pommels, crossguards that were more than what we see here. This is more of a trench dagger-type or blacksmith made piece (nothing wrong with that. I love the simpler types. such as plain cutlass, pikes, etc).

Tim Simmons · 13th May 2012, 01:55 PM

Looking in {British and Commonwealth Military Knives - Ron Flook} helpful and interesting book when it comes to this sort of thing. This can only be a private purchase ww1 knife. Without uploading pages and pages here are a few pictures that illustrate the variety and resouceful knives manufactures came up with in war time production. The knife made from the Gras bayonet was manufactured by W.W. Greener, they also made other knives using the Gras bayonet. Interesting knife with a similar brass guard made by Robins Dudley. Very similar bayonet blade and formed leather scabbard, suggested handle has been replaced. The fact that well known makers were converting bayonets and other sharp steel into trench and other fighting knives helps to explain why the example I show if of a high professional standard. The lack of marks is not unusual either.

M ELEY · 16th May 2012, 09:41 PM

Excellent work finally pinning this one down, Tim! As suspected, a nice example of trench knife. Well done!
Mark

thinreadline · 9th June 2012, 11:01 PM

Certainly a trench knife which has been made from a cut down Brown Bess bayonet blade .

7th May 2012, 12:46 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Interesting Dirk I got this magpie fashion. Not my sort of thing but I fell for the clean lines. At first glance it appears to be a converted bayonet. However I am not so sure. The scabbard has been made for the blade and seems to my eye to be different to the Martini bayonet scabbard I do not know? It is certainly not shed work, made by a professional hand? The handle is turned black wood a kind of ebony. The blade is 27cm long. It is not unheard of to see bayonet type knife blades. You can only stab with it. Dagger nuts oppinions? Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th May 2012 at 05:48 PM.

7th May 2012, 06:01 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	You may well be right. I forgot to mention. If you look very close at the handle, you can see that the handle is secured by two screws one either side. One further up the handle from the other. I have been checking bayonets, and the fullers run from tip to forte. The fullers on this dagger end a good inch before the forte. I think you are correct about ww1 private purchase, officer sort of thing. Many daggers knives and dirks were made for ww1. Though how many were actually used is another question. Sadley I will be unable too show but through x10 loop the screws look hand made. Thank you. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th May 2012 at 06:51 PM.

8th May 2012, 06:57 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Or quite possibly and not at all unreasonable a mid 19th century naval dirk. I have been researching what bayonet this could have been made from if that is the case, and I have been unable to find one with the correct sizing profile and fullering. The bold use of brass is also a very naval thing. ???? Interesting link. http://asoac.org/bulletins/86_tuuite_naval.pdf Last edited by Tim Simmons; 8th May 2012 at 08:31 PM.

13th May 2012, 01:55 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Looking in {British and Commonwealth Military Knives - Ron Flook} helpful and interesting book when it comes to this sort of thing. This can only be a private purchase ww1 knife. Without uploading pages and pages here are a few pictures that illustrate the variety and resouceful knives manufactures came up with in war time production. The knife made from the Gras bayonet was manufactured by W.W. Greener, they also made other knives using the Gras bayonet. Interesting knife with a similar brass guard made by Robins Dudley. Very similar bayonet blade and formed leather scabbard, suggested handle has been replaced. The fact that well known makers were converting bayonets and other sharp steel into trench and other fighting knives helps to explain why the example I show if of a high professional standard. The lack of marks is not unusual either. Attached Images

7th May 2012, 03:18 PM	#2
graeme gt Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 97	It"s got the trench knife look about it .

9th May 2012, 06:04 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	There is a chance it could be naval, but I don't think so. Most of the naval dirks were made for midshipmen and officers, therefore, better quality. That's not to say this could have been made out of necessity during desparate times. I'm thinking it dates post-1850 (based on the simple cross guard piece that was cut in this pattern), so it conceivably could be a Confed dirk, side-knife. It could also be a so-called gambler's boot knife (I've seen some of this quality). If naval (and I say a big IF), it's post Age of Sail when dirks were falling out of favor. Sailors still carried knives, but they were typically blunt/no point for cutting rope or of the clasp knife type during this period. Could still be a trench knife, of course. In any case, a very interesting piece that raises questions...

9th May 2012, 09:33 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thank you. Here is the rub "quality" is fancy quality? I make all sorts of metal fittings for a great deal of objects and I have "issues" about design, taste, and concepts of "quality" perhaps I have been in the trade too long and have become a little jaded.

10th May 2012, 12:29 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	I see your point and please let me clarify. You are correct, as I meant to say "fancy". Although 'fighting dirks' of course existed, many of those carried were dress (fancy, frilly affairs not meant for the boarding party). Likewise, even the simpler types usually had some decoration, be it ivory hilts, brass wire grip wrapping, defined pommels, crossguards that were more than what we see here. This is more of a trench dagger-type or blacksmith made piece (nothing wrong with that. I love the simpler types. such as plain cutlass, pikes, etc).

16th May 2012, 09:41 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Excellent work finally pinning this one down, Tim! As suspected, a nice example of trench knife. Well done! Mark

9th June 2012, 11:01 PM	#10
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Certainly a trench knife which has been made from a cut down Brown Bess bayonet blade .