Keris Bahari?

[ariel]

First of all, I would like to thank everybody who responded to my inquiry about buffalo horn hilts.
Nobody asked me why was I interested in this esoteric issue. Well, here is an explanation, and a (sort of) continuation of my earlier query.

On a whim, I bought a kris I liked. IMHO, this is a Keris Bahari, but I am a complete keris newbie and would like to know more. Allegedly, it came from an old collection, and the same seller offered several more kerises, mainly of Java and Sumatra origins.

The blade is very meaty and quite sharp. It is strongly patinated, but there is no rust and no pitting except some small areas of forging flaws.

The hilt has sparse, but very precise and tasteful carvings at the base and on the very top ( kind of like a trefoil).

The blade and the cavity of the scabbard smell very strongly of camphor oil .

The scabbard is fully intact, with just a tiny crack at its upper part ( almost not noticeable). It is covered with some kind of black varnish? paint?, and there are tiny areas of paint losses under which one can see pale wood. One side of the scabbard is decorated with very simple and completely intact carvings ( this looks to me either incredibly well preserved or newish).

What did I buy?
Is it new and touristy? Or, hopefully, old and valuable, kind of Indonesian Excalibur :-) ?
Is it indeed K. Bahari ( remember, I am a newbie in this area)? Should anything be done to the scabbard in terms of removing the varnish and re-oiling it? Should the blade be cleaned ( pineapple juice, vinegar)? I am NOT going to play with arsenic:-) Any reason to polish the blade before using acid? Any other comments or suggestions?
Thanking everybody in advance.

[ariel]

Part 2.

[Sajen]

Hello Ariel,

it is not a keris bahari but a keris panjang, both keris have the same blade profile while the keris panjang blade is longer. Some people call this keris execution keris. The keris is from Sumatra.

The blade seems to have old rust, not active so far I can see from your pictures.

The varnish seems to my eyes (dirt-) patination maybe overpainted with some sort of finish. The reason is maybe that the stem (by javanese keris called gandar) is a later addition since the original one was broken, but this is all only a guess since I never have seen such a "gandar" by a keris panjang.

When it will be my keris I would clean the blade in lemon acid or pineapple juice. The scabbard I would let in this state since I am very unsure about the stem/gandar. But the upper part normally have a very very nice wood.

Here a thread where you can see three other keris panjang: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panjang
But with the search word "panjang" you will find more.

Regards,

Detlef

[ariel]

Thank you.
What is the numerical difference in length ( analogous to katana/wakizashi) that differentiates Panjang from Bahari? I always thought that panjang's blade is at least ~50 cm, that's why I called mine bahari.

Would you hazard a guess about the age and value ( not monetary!) of it?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ariel

Thank you.
What is the numerical difference in length ( analogous to katana/wakizashi) that differentiates Panjang from Bahari? I always thought that panjang's blade is at least ~50 cm, that's why I called mine bahari.

Would you hazard a guess about the age and value ( not monetary!) of it?

Hello Ariel,

here a thread with some interesting informations regarding panjang/bahari: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bahari
When you look in up of your thread, post #1, you don't have given a length from your keris and I have given my statement only from my visual impression. In the above given thread I show in post # 40 a keris with a blade length from only 36 cm which I personally still would call panjang. You will see keris in this thread which are clearly bahari keris.

Keris panjang are not so many time on the market and sought after but the keris you have bought by ebay (I have had it in my watch list) wasn't sold fast and I think that the pictures and and the strange stem or batang was the reason (at least for me). I am still think that the batang is a later addition.

But all this is my personal impression and believe and there are other much more knowledge members like BluErf or Alam Shah who will be able to tell you much more exact opinions about your keris.

Best regards,

Detlef

[ariel]

I checked the length of the blade alone: 18.5 inches or 47 cm.
Would it still qualify for K. Panjang?

[Rick]

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bahari

Post #40
Keris on the right; I would call that a Bahari; 6 inches shorter would be in Anak-Alang territory, imo .

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ariel

I checked the length of the blade alone: 18.5 inches or 47 cm.
Would it still qualify for K. Panjang?

Yes, think so!

Regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bahari

Post #40
Keris on the right; I would call that a Bahari; 6 inches shorter would be in Anak-Alang territory, imo .

Hello Rick,

with a slim blade like this? I am very unsure!

Regards,

Detlef

[ariel]

Folks,
I am confused: isn't there some kind of convention establishing borders between panjang, bahari and anak-alang in terms of their length?

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Folks,
I am confused: isn't there some kind of convention establishing borders between panjang, bahari and anak-alang in terms of their length?

Ariel, if you are looking for exact delineation lines between these 3 form you will not find them. Bahari is the short form (approx. 9-12 in.), anak alang is the medium form (approx. 14-17 in.) and panang is the long form (approx. 18-22 in.). There is always room for argument for blades that fall close to either form. At 18.5 inch though, i feel confident in saying that your keris is not a bahari. At that length i would call it a keris pajang though someone might say it is a longer anak alang.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Ariel, if you are looking for exact delineation lines between these 3 form you will not find them. Bahari is the short form (approx. 9-12 in.), anak alang is the medium form (approx. 14-17 in.) and panang is the long form (approx. 18-22 in.). There is always room for argument for blades that fall close to either form. At 18.5 inch though, i feel confident in saying that your keris is not a bahari. At that length i would call it a keris pajang though someone might say it is a longer anak alang.

The classification given by David is commonly accepted but by no way universal nor guaranteed. I don't want to confuse the matter but just say that it may also be different in Sumatra and Malaysia respectively.
For those of you who are interested, you can refer to the Ensiklopedi Keris pages 64 & 87, and to the book "Keris and other Malay weapons" by Gerald B. Gardner pages 19, 21, 24, 25, 27, and 45. However I have to say that the information from these books is questionable and that again the correct names are not that important
The opinion from our Malaysian or Singapore members will be appreciated.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The classification given by David is commonly accepted but by no way universal nor guaranteed. I don't want to confuse the matter but just say that it may also be different in Sumatra and Malaysia respectively.
For those of you who are interested, you can refer to the Ensiklopedi Keris pages 64 & 87, and to the book "Keris and other Malay weapons" by Gerald B. Gardner pages 19, 21, 24, 25, 27, and 45. However I have to say that the information from these books is questionable and that again the correct names are not that important
The opinion from our Malaysian or Singapore members will be appreciated.
Regards

Jean, there is very little in the keris world that is ever "universal" or "guaranteed". Your mileage may vary. I think i was clear about that in my answer to Ariel.

[ariel]

Thanks to everyone for providing interesting information. On a lighter side, I am glad I was not the only one confused about proper classification of this keris :-)

I also understand that the scabbard is not a masterpiece of indonesian art, to put it mildly, and is likely to be a replacement. Nevertheless, if we forget about it, what is your opinion about the keris itself? How old is it likely to be? On a scale of 1 to 10, where does it stand as panjangs go?

[kai]

Hello Ariel,

I also vote for it being a keris panjang.

IMO all fittings are probably fairly recent: The hilt and pendokok will do - could certainly be replaced if you find anything nice though; the scabbard could need some improvement - if there's enough wood, one could try to grind away the carving. Covering them up with embossed silver would be another option but having a good, traditional scabbard made for the blade is better (and probably cheaper)...

IMHO, the blade is a rather nice example: (at least) 19th c. with subtle laminations and rare full-length fullers; without a thorough cleaning and etching (hot vinegar should do), I wouldn't want to judge wether the gonjo is original (even if replaced as often needed during the life of a blade, it looks old and well done).

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

IMO all fittings are probably fairly recent: The hilt and pendokok will do - could certainly be replaced if you find anything nice though; the scabbard could need some improvement - if there's enough wood, one could try to grind away the carving. Covering them up with embossed silver would be another option but having a good, traditional scabbard made for the blade is better (and probably cheaper)...

Just my own take on this, but i think sometimes we need to accept a keris and/or it's parts for what it is. Many collectors seem too quick to upgrade, often beyond the quality of the blade itself. This sheath is certainly not ideal and the design on the stem is unusual for this form, but it probably did come from an Indonesian source. It is certainly much more recent than the blade. While i would consider re-finishing it, i don't think i would consider grinding away the carving. The finish is pretty poorly done and if to removed it and refinished it you probably would only improve the look. I like the pendokok and would not consider changing it.
The blade could use some cleaning. I would try a pineapple juice soak with regular brushing with a tooth brush. It's a nice old blade that should clean up well.

[Sajen]

I am not 100% sure but think that handle, pendokok and sampir are old and only the batang is a later replacement. But don't would try to grind away the carvings since they seems to be fairly deep and you will see it when finished. I would let it in this state or maybe replace it when I really like the keris. Agree with David that I would clean the blade and give it a etch.

Regards,

Detlef

[ariel]

Sorry for a stupid question: are we talking about freshly-squeezed pineapple juice or will the canned do?
And why necessarily pineapple juice? If acidity is what is required, why not use 5-10% vinegar from a local supermarket? Anything specific for the pineapple juice or is it just a cultural thing? Also, how do I remove the handle?

Gosh, I never thought there are so many silly questions .......

[David]

Actually Ariel, coconut water might be more traditional. Pineaapple juice is a tried and true acid that works slowly enough as not to do much damage to the metal as it cleans rust and dirt from the blade. You can let it soak for days, but you should hit it with an old toothbrush a couple of times a day during the soak. I use it at the suggestion of Alan Maisey and it works great. I think it is probably more gentle than vinegar. Canned is fine, but unsweetened please.
The handle should have some play in it unless it was epoxied or something stupid like that. Try wiggling it gently while slowly trying to pulling it off. If it doesn't move you may need to gently heat the blade to loosen whatever is binding the pesi (tang).

[ariel]

Many thanks for your help and suggestions.